Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#81

Post by lonelappde » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

xfitm3 wrote: post #53

quadcore wrote: post #13

Agile never gave organizations a holistic, viable alternative to Waterfall. Because there’s a difference between theory and practice. Product work is more about practice. When we complain about “AINO” (Agile In Name Only), we’re not being honest with ourselves. I agree with most of the article. Specially the keep-learning part. All Agile did was put software development teams unfairly under a microscope. I believe Ag…

I was interested in comp sci precisely because I didn't have to talk to people, an area where every interaction is a performance. I want to be alone - what's so wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that, but don't expect to keep a job where you don't have someone to do all the business and project planning and coordination for you, at the expense of your salary. If your computer science talent is good enough, that might work for you.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#82

Post by lonelappde » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

mstade wrote: post #24

geezerjay wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stupid in wanting to get an idea of how much a project costs in order to decide if it's a good idea to pursue, let alonr allocate resources?

I think maybe the point they're trying to make is that comparing a software development project that may include a number of unknowns to buying a pair of jeans where there are probably very few if any unknowns is fallacious and a waste of time. That said, I don't think it's black and white. Some projects, making a simple web site that follows whatever Squarespace template is popular and filling it with some relevant…

And every engineer likes to pretend that their project is a moonshot.

If you are inventing something incredible,why are you someone's employee instead of getting capital investment or self-financing from your last achievements?

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#83

Post by lonelappde » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

duchenne wrote: post #52

commandlinefan wrote: post #10

You don’t hear the name Joel Spolsky much any more, but he was pretty influential in software process thinking in the 90’s - not really for being particularly insightful or original, but more because he was one of the first people who thought of writing a blog about software design. One of his early “observations” about software project management was that “you wouldn’t buy a pair of jeans without knowing how much th…

As a consumer, I can buy an already manufactured pair of jeans or an already programmed Adobe Photoshop for a fixed price. As a producter, the cost of building a jeans factory does not seem to be inherently more predictable than the budget of a software development project.

You think when Tim Cook signs a contract with Foxconn, he says "charge me whatever you want after it's done"?

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#84

Post by acbabis » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

"Agile transformations" are bad, but I still think agile itself is fine. Teams of self-organized, competent developers tend naturally toward agile-like practices. I've seen agile's story-centric model of development help new developers grow by giving them responsibility for specific, testable units of work.

As a lot of people have already said, the problems arise when managers expect agile to give them software on a timeline.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#85

Post by LarryDarrell » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

curtis wrote: post #67

Any software development methodology or process is going to come up short if it ignores the fundamental nature of software development, which is: We do not know what we're doing until we do. Any process or methodology that tries to extract promises out of the software development organization about things that are still in the we do not know what we're doing phase is going to result in disappointment at best and seri…

That's the truth, except, I can't tell clients that "I'll know how long it will take when I'm halfway done." The best I can do is look at prior work and multiply by the LarryDarrell Constant of 1.5.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#86

Post by ok_coo » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

kjsbfkjbf wrote: post #58

xfitm3 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was interested in comp sci precisely because I didn't have to talk to people, an area where every interaction is a performance. I want to be alone - what's so wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that, but careers under capitalism are about _signaling value_. I hope you find a place (or have found a place) where you're appreciated. :)

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted but some of the best career advice I've heard is someone saying you should assume when you go to work that you're working under a communist dictatorship. I.E. Toe the party line, make your boss look good, (pretend to) eat up the company propaganda, assume the leader(s) (C-suite) will do whatever they want, when they want, especially giving themselves bonuses regardless of company performance.

It's a weird contrast to normal life, considering a lot of us live in democracies, but once I understood this and started acting accordingly, it helped me handle my work life.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#87

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #47

nosianu wrote: post #33

"Thou shalt not be negative" (HN) - well I'm sorry. Just some example text: > both Agile and Waterfall are focused on building. Design is about validating. or > So…what’s the way out? It’s a smart focus on clear outcomes, not output, with roadmapped outcomes replacing planned milestones, with trusted product teams, not project teams, empowered to vet assumptions and discover the minimal path to value. Satire? Enough…

Honestly that statement is the nail on the head for me. There's a huge distinction between an output and an outcome and a huge distinction between a project plan and a road map.

[deleted]

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#88

Post by bougiefever » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

I've been developing software for over 20 years, and I still can't estimate how long something will take me when I've never done it before. This uncertainty needs to become more than just a stick to beat developers about the head and shoulders with. Most of the time the PMs understand this, but there have been many projects where they just don't get it. I have suffered great anxiety from being forced to give estimates when the truth is I have no clue. It depends on how easy it is and how many unforeseen issues I encounter. It was so bad that once my husband asked me how long it would be before I was done cooking something, and I practically had a meltdown. That's when I knew it was time to leave that team. Can we stop pretending we can forecast the unknown? (edit typo)

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#89

Post by lettergram » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

LarryDarrell wrote: post #85

curtis wrote: post #67

Any software development methodology or process is going to come up short if it ignores the fundamental nature of software development, which is: We do not know what we're doing until we do. Any process or methodology that tries to extract promises out of the software development organization about things that are still in the we do not know what we're doing phase is going to result in disappointment at best and seri…

That's the truth, except, I can't tell clients that "I'll know how long it will take when I'm halfway done." The best I can do is look at prior work and multiply by the LarryDarrell Constant of 1.5.

I usually do 2x my expectation. I keep track of my prior estimates and compare against my real time. I normally miss by about 30% - 50%, this leaves me a fair margin. It’s also been improving with time, which means I’m getting better at assessing my skills and problems.

For me, I tend to work quicker than other contractors / employees, so I still often beat out the other quotes (time or money). That’s not always the case for others, so they margin of safety may not be there. In which case, multiply by a smaller constant.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#90

Post by Bartweiss » Mon, Jul 01, 2019, 4:27 PM UTC

quadcore wrote: post #13

Agile never gave organizations a holistic, viable alternative to Waterfall. Because there’s a difference between theory and practice. Product work is more about practice. When we complain about “AINO” (Agile In Name Only), we’re not being honest with ourselves. I agree with most of the article. Specially the keep-learning part. All Agile did was put software development teams unfairly under a microscope. I believe Ag…

> You have to realise that before Agile, a fair portion of all software development projects that were started would simply bust and never get shipped.

I have plenty of gripes with Agile, but there's definitely a "victim of its own success" aspect to the whole thing.

"Agile in name only" is frustrating compared to a good system, but in many cases it's still far better than what came before it. Basic ideas like "we should expect requirements to change" and "if the programmer doesn't know what their code will be used for, something is wrong" weren't necessarily accepted prior to agile. Projects that are chaotic, mismanaged messes under AINO might well have been orderly deathmarches or cancelled outright in the past. Some of this progress is technological (source control, post-release patching, digital distribution), but some of it really does owe to Agile.

It reminds me a bit of the scientific method. The elaborate eight-step thing taught in school feels like silly boilerplate, but it's shocking to realize that "ideas are tested by experiment" was a genuine breakthrough from a past that made major choices like disease treatments and scurvy cures based on 'reasoning' without testing them at all.