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Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

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Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#21

Post by forgottenpass »

I don't know any description of Agile better than meaningless buzzword. Buzzwords are not without value. They are a tool for selling a change without describing all the nitty gritty.

"Agile" is a lie that before 2001 nobody at all had ever done iterative software development, and all software process ideas that came after 2001 are by definition "agile."

"Agile", as with any other buzzword, is not for people who actually understand the details of the change; it's for someone who needs a handle onto concepts that would fly over their heads without a buzzword. Lets stop litigating the term, and move on.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#22

Post by ellius »

danielbarla wrote: post #17
geezerjay wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stupid in wanting to get an idea of how much a project costs in order to decide if it's a good idea to pursue, let alonr allocate resources?

Nothing, inherently, except perhaps the fallacy of comparing a pair of jeans to the rather chaotic and unpredictable world of bespoke systems development. One is inherently known (a pair of jeans you've presumably already manufactured), the other is one big unknown, basically.

Aircraft, hospitals, hotels — a million complex bespoke things are built every day. Cost and time projections are inevitable.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#23

Post by bewo001 »

mpweiher wrote: post #2

I agree that almost all of the orgs I encountered that were Doing Agile were pretty horrible. On the other hand, I've also been in orgs that were very successful in developing software in a way that we would recognise as being agile. We just didn't make a big deal out of it. And we didn't do standups (most of the time), or 2 week sprints, or retrospectives. We didn't even pair consistently: we split up on trivial stu…

Agile has fallen into the hands of big consultants. Now the focus is on process, with more meetings and presentations than ever before.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#24

Post by mstade »

geezerjay wrote: post #14
commandlinefan wrote: post #10

You don’t hear the name Joel Spolsky much any more, but he was pretty influential in software process thinking in the 90’s - not really for being particularly insightful or original, but more because he was one of the first people who thought of writing a blog about software design. One of his early “observations” about software project management was that “you wouldn’t buy a pair of jeans without knowing how much th…

What's stupid in wanting to get an idea of how much a project costs in order to decide if it's a good idea to pursue, let alonr allocate resources?

I think maybe the point they're trying to make is that comparing a software development project that may include a number of unknowns to buying a pair of jeans where there are probably very few if any unknowns is fallacious and a waste of time.

That said, I don't think it's black and white. Some projects, making a simple web site that follows whatever Squarespace template is popular and filling it with some relevant content can be a pretty simple project, even to the point where the buying a pair of jeans comparison makes more sense.

The problem, I suppose, is when you believe strongly that every project can be accurately priced up front. Not every project is a moonshot, but some truly are and it's not always obvious up front which ones are.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#25

Post by draw_down »

commandlinefan wrote: post #10

You don’t hear the name Joel Spolsky much any more, but he was pretty influential in software process thinking in the 90’s - not really for being particularly insightful or original, but more because he was one of the first people who thought of writing a blog about software design. One of his early “observations” about software project management was that “you wouldn’t buy a pair of jeans without knowing how much th…

I've been a professional developer/engineer/programmer/whatever for 15 years. That doesn't seem stupid to me.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#26

Post by twic »

geezerjay wrote: post #14
commandlinefan wrote: post #10

You don’t hear the name Joel Spolsky much any more, but he was pretty influential in software process thinking in the 90’s - not really for being particularly insightful or original, but more because he was one of the first people who thought of writing a blog about software design. One of his early “observations” about software project management was that “you wouldn’t buy a pair of jeans without knowing how much th…

What's stupid in wanting to get an idea of how much a project costs in order to decide if it's a good idea to pursue, let alonr allocate resources?

Writing software is design, not manufacturing [1]. Do companies know accurately in advance how much it will cost to design a new nuclear power plant, aircraft carrier, or jet engine?

[1] http://www.bleading-edge.com/Publications/C++Journal/Cpjour2...

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#27

Post by [deleted] »

mstade wrote: post #24
geezerjay wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stupid in wanting to get an idea of how much a project costs in order to decide if it's a good idea to pursue, let alonr allocate resources?

I think maybe the point they're trying to make is that comparing a software development project that may include a number of unknowns to buying a pair of jeans where there are probably very few if any unknowns is fallacious and a waste of time. That said, I don't think it's black and white. Some projects, making a simple web site that follows whatever Squarespace template is popular and filling it with some relevant…

[deleted]

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#28

Post by emiliobumachar »

commandlinefan wrote: post #10

You don’t hear the name Joel Spolsky much any more, but he was pretty influential in software process thinking in the 90’s - not really for being particularly insightful or original, but more because he was one of the first people who thought of writing a blog about software design. One of his early “observations” about software project management was that “you wouldn’t buy a pair of jeans without knowing how much th…

The subtler point is that if the developer won't make an estimate for how much time a feature will take, than the manager will. And the manager's estimate will tend to be even worse than the developer's, so we should all prefer that the developer makes the estimate even though it will be a bad estimate in an absolute scale.

Note that the manager's estimate may be implicit or explicit, conscious or unconscious, but they will make one in the absence of the developer's. An implicit estimate would look like the manager doing a "gut call" when deciding whether or not to give the go-ahead to a feature, with no numbers attached to time and cost.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#29

Post by emiliobumachar »

emiliobumachar wrote: post #28
commandlinefan wrote: post #10

You don’t hear the name Joel Spolsky much any more, but he was pretty influential in software process thinking in the 90’s - not really for being particularly insightful or original, but more because he was one of the first people who thought of writing a blog about software design. One of his early “observations” about software project management was that “you wouldn’t buy a pair of jeans without knowing how much th…

The subtler point is that if the developer won't make an estimate for how much time a feature will take, than the manager will . And the manager's estimate will tend to be even worse than the developer's, so we should all prefer that the developer makes the estimate even though it will be a bad estimate in an absolute scale. Note that the manager's estimate may be implicit or explicit, conscious or unconscious, but t…

The real problem is treating the estimate as a commitment, but Spolsky does rail against that.
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