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Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

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31–40 of 122 posts

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#31
post #6

The credibility of the article is undermined by hyperbolic statements such as, "For a lot of children, when they’re 8 years old, it’s too late. If your parents aren’t engaged in the education system, in 10 years you’ll be competing in the labor market against people whose parents sent them to violin lessons and summer programs in the Dominican Republic. There’s inequality of opportunity." It's too late for "a lot of…

The example they gave is pretty terrible, but yes, a lot has already been determined by age 8 based on parental engagement in their child’s education.

That said, it’s simpler than the example they gave. Some well-established examples:

- Did you read to your child from a young age? Bonus points if you did it in an “interactive” way.

- Did you engage with your children in dialogue using more or less proper speech (i.e., not baby talk). Ideally this is in a wide range of topics and with different types of language (e.g., description, narration, etc.). Ideally with some modeling of good language as well.

- Did/do you review your child’s homework with them? Ideally, did/do you sit with them quite a bit and review study strategies, time management, etc.?

- Do you constantly have new sources of learning available to your kids, and do you encourage them to use them (ideally by engaging with said materials with them)?

- Ideal but optional, do you try to give your children a wide range of experiences. Simple examples are field trips, intro to various sports, intro to various arts, etc.? The article characterizes this with very high end examples, but they can be done cheaply.

The parents who do these things give their children a huge advantage in life.

Some folks on HN may be asking something along the lines of “um, isn’t that what pretty much all parents do?” The answer is largely no.

A common (perhaps close to median) example of poor parental engagement in the education environment:

- Child is never read to... ever. Parent may not be so good at reading.

- Child rarely spoken to, except via commands. Household mentality is that children are meant to be seen and not heard.

- Child largely left alone to keep themselves entertained on their own in a resource-poor environment.

- Child is never helped with homework. Never encouraged to learn for the sake of learning. School is often disparaged, and doing well in school may entail being abused by family members and/or peers.

- Child never leaves their neighborhood, much less their town, state, or country. Much of what is seen on TV that is supposed to be a caricature of modern life is largely or completely unrelatable to the child’s own environment.

- Things like going to anything cultural that is oriented towards children is non-existent. No children’s museum, no children’s theater or orchestra. Sports will be whatever (if anything) is played locally.

These folks have an uphill battle in terms of fighting inequality.

If you want to do something to counter the second example, support Headstart programs financially and politically. These programs have proven results, but somehow find themselves consistently compromised in terms of funding. These programs are low-hanging fruit for easy wins.

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#32
post #6

The credibility of the article is undermined by hyperbolic statements such as, "For a lot of children, when they’re 8 years old, it’s too late. If your parents aren’t engaged in the education system, in 10 years you’ll be competing in the labor market against people whose parents sent them to violin lessons and summer programs in the Dominican Republic. There’s inequality of opportunity." It's too late for "a lot of…

Depends on the quality of the education system, it well could be that a gap gathered by 8 will have a huge impact. The system can be quite competitive at 8 (and in some countries, as early as 5 or 6)

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#33
post #10
post #4

“But the last 50 years have been terrible for people with lower skills. Adjusted for inflation, the average earnings of a man who didn’t go to college is lower now than it was 50 years ago. That’s unheard of.” How much of this effect is the vastly higher percentage of people who now go to college? If you line up 100 people by vague estimation of their likely earning potential in 1970 and do the same today, but now 2.…

Yep. And even the people with college will necessarily compare less favorably with that older cohort over time. In a world where everyone has a college degree, well, some people with college degrees will have to be the ditch diggers so to speak. I don't know how you solve that problem? It's just math.

> some people with college degrees will have to be the ditch diggers so to speak. [...] It's just math

How about we pay the ditch diggers enough to live on? In fact, what the numbers are showing is that ditch diggers are poorer now than they were! Even if you refuse to share any of your tech industry gains, can't we at least keep ditch diggers at parity?

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#34
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use your educated populace to design robots to dig ditches. It's not "math" that humans have to engage in undesirable labor, under brutal conditions. We have thousands of years of developing tools that are contrary to that statement. It is a collective social decision to say that an hour of someone's time is worth less than building a robot. That's the only reason why cashiers still exist.

It's still math. If you go that route, then the people who build and program the robots will necessarily be paid less. Today that is likely a top 10% job. (More likely a top 5% job if we're being honest.) In a world where everyone has a college degree and there are 30 times the number of people who can program those things because the tools have gotten just that easy... well, you do the math. At the extreme, you can'…

> Put in more base terms, there is only room for 1% of the people, in the top 1%.

That... seems to be a total misunderstanding of why people are concerned about income inequality. The fact that the sizes of the percentile buckets are fixes does not mean that the distribution between the buckets is zero sum.

There's no "just math" reason for why we pay some jobs more than others. It's not even a "just market" reason. There are elaborate regulations on income (c.f. tax brackets, minimum wage, investment taxes, mortgage deductions...) all across the board. And those aren't working well, as evidenced by the numbers in the linked article.

None of that stuff is "math". It's policy.

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#35
post #15
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, how much of this effect is basically the rest of the world playing catch up in terms of economic production? China and the rest of Asia are magnitudes more competitive compared to 50 years ago. And prior to that US industry was unmatched thanks to the massive effects world war 2 had on the other, western industrialized nations.

That doesn't explain why inequality within the US keeps growing. As a whole the country is doing well but somehow the benefits go a small number of people while everybody else is stagnating.

Sure it does. US consumer demand rises after WWII because of GI bill & repurposing of capital -> competition drives prices down -> Securities & Exchanges Act essentially mandates firms optimize for returns to capital as a fiduciary duty to shareholders -> producers look to countries where standards of living demand lower wages to maintain market positions -> US jobs decline but shareholder value grows -> wealth concentrates in the hands of those who have the opportunity to be a shareholders

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#36
post #19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, how much of this effect is basically the rest of the world playing catch up in terms of economic production? If the rest of the world becoming more productive results in US workers being worse off, then something is severely wrong with US trade policy. For one, it contradicts the dogma that more trade is strictly beneficial.

> For one, it contradicts the dogma that more trade is strictly beneficial. Ricardo's original idea was applicable with a narrow set of assumptions/conditions and didn't have much to say about who'd end up with the greater net wealth. I'm not sure how/why it was turned into a magical improve-any-economy law of nature.

Ricardo's mistake is not thinking about development; comparative advantage is optimal now, but a society that just makes coffee beans is going to lose in the end to the one that makes microchips because of the difference in how the economy and society develop over time.

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#37
post #4

“But the last 50 years have been terrible for people with lower skills. Adjusted for inflation, the average earnings of a man who didn’t go to college is lower now than it was 50 years ago. That’s unheard of.” How much of this effect is the vastly higher percentage of people who now go to college? If you line up 100 people by vague estimation of their likely earning potential in 1970 and do the same today, but now 2.…

It's like playing an MMORPG-style videogame where the developers keep raising the level cap. The higher the cap, the worse off people who are just starting are (and why in those games developers keep having to provide a "catch up mechanics", like a scroll to rush you to level cap, or making stuff easier to obtain. In the real world that's a lot harder to do though).

Probably made worse by the vastly higher amount of dual income household, so someone with just 1 income is proportionally worse off.

A single unskilled worker vs a couple of high skill workers, competing for supply & demand against each other...yeah, the former's not gonna have fun.

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#38
>Because the low-wage jobs that left here are considered really good jobs in China. We’ve lifted a billion, two billion people out of poverty over the past 30 years.

This sort of shit is the worst. People in China doing well is not our problem, just like people in Germany doing well is not our problem, and there is something deeply racist at the root of this suggestion, as if poor people in China are stealing wealth that rightly belongs to Americans. This is not how productivity works. The people stealing from Americans are rich Americans.

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#39
Living standards have gone down and life has become much more economically insecure for most working people as a result of the policies that economists recommend. This includes globalization, free trade, low taxes, destruction of labor unions, and the like. The authors support these policies. These changes have been accompanied by a political system that no longer represents the left behind. So of course the losers are not compensated; that is by design, not accident. I think we have the choice to either become more equal or face increasing political instability and viciousness - and the latter is more likely, witness Trump, Brexit, etc. I have lost respect for economic analysis because it has been so out of touch with political and social consequences as to be hugely destructive to the fabric of society. Much more of this and I hate to see what will become of our society.

Re: Rising US Inequality: How We Got Here, Where We're Going

#40
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For one, it contradicts the dogma that more trade is strictly beneficial. It is strictly beneficial, in aggregate. But in any situation, there are winners and there are losers. There are no decisions you can make where everybody wins. If you live in a first world country and your skill set is worse than somebody in the developing world, you’re going to have a bad time.

> But in any situation, there are winners and there are losers. The usually trotted-out theory of comparative advantage claims there are only winners.

I don’t think you fully understand comparative advantage then.
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