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Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

nytimes.com

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Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#211

Post by pm90 »

18pfsmt wrote: post #210
davemp wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is the most populated country on earth and an emerging superpower. They have every right to consider themselves exceptional, just the way the US considers itself exceptional. Being highly populated and powerful is not really an exception in history. The USA got (? gets) its sense of exceptionalism from their innovative form of government/constitution that provided more freedoms than any government in history.…

There is a notable anti-US, anti-liberal (in the classical sense) contingent on HN that is somewhat recent. These people hate the US, but can't stop visiting our websties to tell us about it. It is getting out of hand. America is not a place, it's an idea (I realize you get this idea).

Expressing criticism about American policy isn't the same as being anti-US. I would argue that it is people like you who are the real haters of what America stands for.

Hint: America is not about flag waiving, native pride that you betray in your statements ("can't stop visiting _our_ websties ")

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#212

Post by echaozh »

kazagistar wrote: post #148
pm90 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain to me how billions of dollars in subsidies for agriculture are not one way trade barriers.

If all China was doing was investing in it's own industries and sponsoring them, it would be very different from it's current policy of actually locking out competitors who dont have a local presence and such. There is a steep difference between positive economic assistance and negative legal barriers.

Without a local presence, how can the business be hold responsible if there's misdeed? US senators may even want to deny Huawei compensation for patent infringement in the US.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#213

Post by AnthonyMouse »

a3n wrote: post #206
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STV, ranked choice, IRV, etc. What we really need is approval voting / range voting. First past the post creates polarization because it causes there to be two parties and requires every issue to be bifurcated into on of those two boxes, and if your preferences don't all perfectly align with party lines then welcome to hell. But the problem with proportional representation systems is that they would require flippin…

> What we really need is approval voting / range voting. What we really need is for everyone to vote. Or, for nobody to vote, which would trigger chaos. As Mel Brooks said, "Out of chaos, comes order."

> What we really need is for everyone to vote.

If the people who currently vote are a representative sample of all people eligible to vote, this would change nothing at all.

They're not, so what would end up happening is that both parties would spend more time pandering to the people who currently could vote but don't, the additional votes would end up split evenly between the two parties and the difference from the status quo would be modest at best.

First past the post creates a polarized two party system independent of what percentage of the population votes.

> Or, for nobody to vote, which would trigger chaos.

That would never happen because the fewer people who vote the more incentive there is for anyone go to vote, because your vote counts more when other people don't.

It's more effective in general to cast a protest vote for a third party you know won't win than to stay home -- especially since they often need a certain percentage of the vote for ballot access or public financing. And if enough people do that then the third party actually wins. Then ideally they can do away with first past the post.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#214

Post by 18pfsmt »

pm90 wrote: post #211
18pfsmt wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a notable anti-US, anti-liberal (in the classical sense) contingent on HN that is somewhat recent. These people hate the US, but can't stop visiting our websties to tell us about it. It is getting out of hand. America is not a place, it's an idea (I realize you get this idea).

Expressing criticism about American policy isn't the same as being anti-US. I would argue that it is people like you who are the real haters of what America stands for. Hint: America is not about flag waiving, native pride that you betray in your statements ("can't stop visiting _our_ websties ")

I know where the servers for HN are hosted (as does anyone that cares), and it's not in your country. Our servers. Yes we give you access more than you deserve, but dang does his thing quite well.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#215

Post by inflatableDodo »

pjc50 wrote: post #8
scarejunba wrote: post #3

The semiconductor is game-changing tech. When America allowed the Hygon Dhyana to be made, America fucked up. Hold it back. This is real tech. You can't let it go. I'm for free societies, but free societies must defend themselves from societies organized to kill free societies. The semiconductor is real. Giving away this will pay poor dividends.

This is ridiculous. Semiconductor manufacturing has been globalised for decades . The "other China" has had TSMC since 1987, and they are world leaders. > Hold it back It's technology. Talking about technology is speech. You can have free speech or technology export restrictions but not both. Why do people keep suggesting ways to keep America ""free"" that make it substantially less free? Especially since 9/11.

>It's technology. Talking about technology is speech.

Further, the main difference between tools and technology, is story.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#216

Post by 18pfsmt »

pm90 wrote: post #211
18pfsmt wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a notable anti-US, anti-liberal (in the classical sense) contingent on HN that is somewhat recent. These people hate the US, but can't stop visiting our websties to tell us about it. It is getting out of hand. America is not a place, it's an idea (I realize you get this idea).

Expressing criticism about American policy isn't the same as being anti-US. I would argue that it is people like you who are the real haters of what America stands for. Hint: America is not about flag waiving, native pride that you betray in your statements ("can't stop visiting _our_ websties ")

If any of your people believe these ideas, I will pick you up at Denver Airport, and deliver you anywhere you like.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#217

Post by pm90 »

ThomPete wrote: post #64
jjoonathan wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China can make new IP too. Our big advantage was our head start and we blew it. I'd love to be wrong. As for letting China continue to reap the benefits of being defined as a developing nation, yes, that's absurd, and also needed to stop 10-20 years ago.

Our big advantage is our free and open markets. It's not a question about whether we blew it the question is what are we going to do about it. Letting China win this with their mafia-like government, where there is no rule of law only rule of the party, is simply not an option. Right now the biggest challenge is the western politicians who hate Trump so much they don't care if they help the Chinese. Anything to get h…

> Right now the biggest challenge is the western politicians who hate Trump so much they don't care if they help the Chinese. Anything to get him down.

Absolutely wrong. What do you think the TPP was meant to do?

The only thing Trump does is short term bluster and outbursts with no long term plan at all. Tariffs are short term plays. Long term strategic thinking requires creation of alliances and allies.

The fundamental difference always seems to be if you can persuade the world that your ideas and system is good, or you demand it by force. The latter is not a very effective long term strategy.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#218

Post by pm90 »

olalonde wrote: post #106
trymas wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you are trying to say, but IMO that's practically the definition of irony. > Economic-liberals in the US have mostly been Republicans historically. > people are allowed to rethink their ideas. Of course people can change their minds and opinions. But that's what is ironic and funny - to completely change your long time historical behaviour.

Ah I see what OP meant now. But isn't Trump's stated goal with the trade war to obtain more free trade ultimately? My understanding is that he believes a trade war with China might force its hand into adopting more liberal trading policies. If that's correct, I wouldn't say the objective has changed so much but the approach definitely has (and it's indeed not a very popular approach among economic liberals).

Trying to figure out what "Trump" wants is an exercise in futility.

The Trump administration's stated goals are to obtain concessions for some American industries. Precisely the ones that funded his rise (Coal, Steel, Agribusinesses etc.) or where most of his ardent loyalists are employed.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#219

Post by ThomPete »

pm90 wrote: post #217
ThomPete wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our big advantage is our free and open markets. It's not a question about whether we blew it the question is what are we going to do about it. Letting China win this with their mafia-like government, where there is no rule of law only rule of the party, is simply not an option. Right now the biggest challenge is the western politicians who hate Trump so much they don't care if they help the Chinese. Anything to get h…

> Right now the biggest challenge is the western politicians who hate Trump so much they don't care if they help the Chinese. Anything to get him down. Absolutely wrong. What do you think the TPP was meant to do? The only thing Trump does is short term bluster and outbursts with no long term plan at all. Tariffs are short term plays. Long term strategic thinking requires creation of alliances and allies. The fundamen…

It wasn't meant to do anything but solidify chinas continued domination over western markets through our reliance on their cheap labor.

Politics isn't debate club. It doesn't work that way especially not when you are dealing with a mafia organization like Chinas ruling party.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#220

Post by ThomPete »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #201
ThomPete wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US has a trade deficit with almost all of its trading partners. That is a structural issue. But has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. It's not a crude caricature. IP protection in china is non existing which anyone who even done a little business in china knows very well. It's litterally one of the biggest criticisms so I am not sure where you are getting your information from, none the less it'…

> IP protection in china is non existing which anyone who even done a little business in china knows very well. Rather than going back and forth with "Yes it is," "No it isn't," I'll provide some hard facts here. China has been ramping up IP enforcement over the past five years or so. In 2014, China began establishing specialized IP courts in major cities, and over time, more and more have been created. These courts…

Those are not hard facts.

Progress isn't the same as a satisfactory situation. Anyone who has tried working in China knows exactly what the problem is.

If not for Trump we wouldn't even be having this discussion and China would now have more or less complete domination on large parts of western infrastructure.

I have no idea what make you think that you are making any kind of argument here. It's a known fact even by the EU that china is not giving us access to their markets and har not actually securing IP and are in fact forcing it onto chinese hands.

That's not something I am just making up it's at the heart of the conflict.

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