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Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

nytimes.com

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Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#201

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

ThomPete wrote: post #196
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To claim that the structural problems are US is absurd. The US has a trade deficit with almost all of its trading partners. That is a structural issue. > no IP protection That's a crude caricature. There is IP protection in China. If that weren't the case, American microchip designers would not be making such large licensing fees in China. As far as I understand it, as a non-expert, IP protection in China is actual…

>The US has a trade deficit with almost all of its trading partners. That is a structural issue. But has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. It's not a crude caricature. IP protection in china is non existing which anyone who even done a little business in china knows very well. It's litterally one of the biggest criticisms so I am not sure where you are getting your information from, none the less it'…

> IP protection in china is non existing which anyone who even done a little business in china knows very well.

Rather than going back and forth with "Yes it is," "No it isn't," I'll provide some hard facts here.

China has been ramping up IP enforcement over the past five years or so. In 2014, China began establishing specialized IP courts in major cities, and over time, more and more have been created. These courts have been hearing a rapidly expanding number of cases. The number of IP disputes heard in Chinese courts has increased by 30-40% every year for the past few years. Last year, Chinese courts heard nearly 300,000 IP disputes. 10% of patent cases in China are brought by foreign companies, and they win 70% of cases.

There have been problems with the Chinese court system when it comes to IP. The penalties for IP infringement have historically been low, but they have been increasing. Evidence discovery has been difficult, but new procedures have been introduced to enable it. Foreign companies have felt that local companies are favored, but the central government has been pushing for stronger enforcement of foreign companies' rights, and the statistics show that foreign companies are now as successful as Chinese companies in their cases.

In light of all this, I think it's fair to say that the picture you're painting is crude. China is actually becoming one of the most active venues for IP litigation in the world, going just by the sheer volume of cases they handle now.

1. https://www.limegreenipnews.com/2018/09/china-ip-litigation-...

2. https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/chinas-progress-on-intellect...

3. https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2018/05/07/rapid-changes-chinese-...

4. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3001407/jum...

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#202

Post by zanny »

warmwaffles wrote: post #135
zanny wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind blowing that a majority of the people might win a democratic election. Its all hyperbole overshadowing the root problem - first past the post non-proportional elections are hugely undemocratic. You need proportional legislatures where you have both multiple winners per race for better proportional distribution and alternate votes to first past the post regardless of what they are - STV, ranked choice, IRV, etc.…

> Mind blowing that a majority of the people might win a democratic election. People in dense urban areas should not have a dictatorial say in what those who live in rural areas do.

We should measure people not in the amount of land they own or occupy but as individuals, and every one of them should have equal merit in deciding how society is run.

As it is I could have a substantial unequal share in representative interest moving to a sparsely populated state than I would living in a major metro area. There is absolutely no way to consider that as anything other than a mockery of democracy.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#203

Post by neonate »

danharaj wrote: post #145
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Concentration camp" has a specific connotation. Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. Fault Trump with everything that's his fault, but suggesting that this is a precursor to mass graves and genocide is just hyperbole.

> Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites. The fact tha…

That's true. But post-holocaust, the term came to mean the holocaust camps. Growing up, I never heard it used any other way. For example I never heard the camps in which the US and Canada put their Japanese citizens in WWII called concentration camps, though in the original sense they were. Rather they were called internment camps, because by then "concentration camp" had come to be associated with the holocaust. So there's a semantic sleight of hand in people reviving the term for political use now. They're taking advantage of the extreme associations it now has, while protesting that they don't mean it that way.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#204

Post by a3n »

onemoresoop wrote: post #89
BigChiefSmokem wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres a good reason why we shouldn’t use direct democracy and the Founders where very clear about that.

All these tools from the founding fathers were abused and misused.

1. All systems can be gamed.

2. All systems will be gamed.

3. The people are not the players, they are the chips.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#205

Post by a3n »

sigzero wrote: post #120
bluejekyll wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America did not elect this administration by a majority of the popular vote. The electoral college did. It’s an artifact of the original founding of the country where there were checks and balances put in place to deny direct democratic rule. It’s been slowly rolled back over many years, but until we get rid of the electoral college, it always has the possibility of ignoring the will of the people.

Getting rid of the Electoral College would destroy America. You would basically have two large areas control the whole process. Nope, no thank you. The only reason it failed last time is Hillary failed to understand it.

Most (my total guess) US states elect governors by direct election. Why are they not destroyed?

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#206

Post by a3n »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #142
zanny wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind blowing that a majority of the people might win a democratic election. Its all hyperbole overshadowing the root problem - first past the post non-proportional elections are hugely undemocratic. You need proportional legislatures where you have both multiple winners per race for better proportional distribution and alternate votes to first past the post regardless of what they are - STV, ranked choice, IRV, etc.…

> STV, ranked choice, IRV, etc. What we really need is approval voting / range voting. First past the post creates polarization because it causes there to be two parties and requires every issue to be bifurcated into on of those two boxes, and if your preferences don't all perfectly align with party lines then welcome to hell. But the problem with proportional representation systems is that they would require flippin…

> What we really need is approval voting / range voting.

What we really need is for everyone to vote.

Or, for nobody to vote, which would trigger chaos. As Mel Brooks said, "Out of chaos, comes order."

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#207

Post by AnimalMuppet »

josephdviviano wrote: post #147
warmwaffles wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mind blowing that a majority of the people might win a democratic election. People in dense urban areas should not have a dictatorial say in what those who live in rural areas do.

Yes but also, people in rural areas should not have a dictatorial say in what those who live in urban areas do. If democracies like the USA (Canada has a similar problem) simply counted the votes, the majority of the country would be happier with the outcome. From a pragmatic standpoint, this is a good thing. "U.S. Cities are Home to 62.7 Percent of the U.S. Population, but Comprise Just 3.5 Percent of Land Area" htt…

You might have a system where neither side can force anything down the other side's throat. To do that, you might need something like one legislature where the cities predominate, and another where the rural has more sway. You might call it a "bicameral legislature" or something.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#208

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

ThomPete wrote: post #197
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, precisely, is wrong? It is simply a fact that American brands are omnipresent in China. It's a very striking thing if you go to any big Chinese city - how many Western restaurants, hotels, clothing brands, automobile brands and technology brands are everywhere. The idea that China doesn't protect IP is a cliché one hears in the West, but it's not accurate. Developing countries generally have much weaker IP enfo…

You are missing the point here. Big brands are part of the problem here, they are the ones who got acces to chinese markets by offering jobs. We are talking about normal companies not just big brands that get things produced in china. I would urge you to study the subject a little more, you will be surprised how much of what you think is simply wrong.

Be concrete about what you're claiming. You've granted that big American brands have access to the Chinese market (and I'd add that their sales there are very significant and have been increasing rapidly as Chinese consumer spending has grown). Now you're claiming that somehow, "normal" American companies are being blocked from the Chinese market. What are these "normal" American companies? How, precisely, is China blocking them from doing business?

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#209

Post by mindslight »

a3n wrote: post #206
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STV, ranked choice, IRV, etc. What we really need is approval voting / range voting. First past the post creates polarization because it causes there to be two parties and requires every issue to be bifurcated into on of those two boxes, and if your preferences don't all perfectly align with party lines then welcome to hell. But the problem with proportional representation systems is that they would require flippin…

> What we really need is approval voting / range voting. What we really need is for everyone to vote. Or, for nobody to vote, which would trigger chaos. As Mel Brooks said, "Out of chaos, comes order."

> What we really need is for everyone to vote.

This is squarely in the territory of religion.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#210

Post by 18pfsmt »

davemp wrote: post #75
pm90 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me it speaks volumes how restrictive and hostile the Chinese market is to foreign companies, can you imagine having to do the same for each country? China is the most populated country on earth and an emerging superpower. They have every right to consider themselves exceptional, just the way the US considers itself exceptional. To posit another angle: most international nations are smaller markets than the US (i…

> China is the most populated country on earth and an emerging superpower. They have every right to consider themselves exceptional, just the way the US considers itself exceptional. Being highly populated and powerful is not really an exception in history. The USA got (? gets) its sense of exceptionalism from their innovative form of government/constitution that provided more freedoms than any government in history.…

There is a notable anti-US, anti-liberal (in the classical sense) contingent on HN that is somewhat recent. These people hate the US, but can't stop visiting our websties to tell us about it. It is getting out of hand.

America is not a place, it's an idea (I realize you get this idea).

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