Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#201

Post by carapace » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #107

Shivetya wrote: post #20

Well I was not going to buy one, the price jump from the previous Pro was not something I or many expected or appreciated. I will get on my soap box again. Apple needs to be out of China, not moving more manufacturing to that country. What will it take to get Apple to stand up for the rights of the oppressed in China or are they that wrapped up in dollars they no longer see the people component? For a country which s…

I believe you are over-simplifying a very complicated argument, although perhaps HN is not the place for the full argument. When I was young, I lived in nightly fear of China. I lived on a military base in the 1980s, and read conspiratorialist material my parents had in the house. One of my greatest fears was China's army of hundreds of millions of men. Today I don't fear China. I have a ten-year tourist visa for Chi…

> Today I don't fear China. I have a ten-year tourist visa for China and will be heading to Hong Kong next week.

Hong Kong was just the site of a million people protesting because they were afraid of China.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/11/why-are-t...

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#202

Post by throwmex » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

riq_ wrote: post #150

40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

> Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. First of all: You are not wrong. But similar things can be said about USA. USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they m…

I wonder why you aren't down voted for crying out loud that the emperor's nude. I try to see the multiple facets of a story rather than trusting medias be it wester or eastern. How many will bother to see what CNN, RT, BBC, AlJazeera and the likes of it are saying about the same story ?

When China invests in Africa, why is it a bad thing when many countries in Africa are suffering from Françafrique ?

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#203

Post by nova22033 » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

riq_ wrote: post #150

40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

> Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. First of all: You are not wrong. But similar things can be said about USA. USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they m…

>But of course the American press won't tell you about that.

Are you seriously saying American media didn't report on the bad stuff that happened during the Iraq war? I know google is likely banned where you are but...

>I don't want to put in a way that the USA is "bad" or China "good", or vice-versa.

The agenda here is quite transparent....Sure we run concentration camps for muslims in Xinjiang but we all do bad stuff so let's not talk about it...

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#204

Post by gpvos » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #127

Lambdanaut wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing in your statement that provides evidence of instability is your arbitrary inclusion of the adjective "desperately" to describe China's actions. All governments work towards stability in their own ways. I don't see desperation in Chinese strategy, but I do see a lot of energy.

> I do see a lot of energy You are free to use any word to describe it, you could also call it "expense." China is spending time and energy on suppressing dissent proportional to their fear of their own people. The CCP has decided that the risk of being deposed is high enough to justify the cost and effort required to implement all of those nightmarish schemes.

Unfortunately, it does seem to work.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#205

Post by snarf21 » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #20

Well I was not going to buy one, the price jump from the previous Pro was not something I or many expected or appreciated. I will get on my soap box again. Apple needs to be out of China, not moving more manufacturing to that country. What will it take to get Apple to stand up for the rights of the oppressed in China or are they that wrapped up in dollars they no longer see the people component? For a country which s…

I'm saying you are right or wrong but let me ask you this. Have you divested yourself (401K, IRA, etc.) completely from Apple? Their margin comes exclusively from making these things as economically as possible. Or are you willing to pay $2K for your next iPhone so the stock can keep growing at such a high rate? All of our actions have consequences too.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#206

Post by wuliwong » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #184

sonnyblarney wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they mention it, they will put phrase it like "America liberated the population of Irak " This is complete rubbish. The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level, where China is. Second - geopolitical issues have nothing to do with theft of IP,…

> The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level, where China is. Seriously? You are kidding right? You must be kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial... The most poplular examples are probably German Enercon and Dutch Airbus, but our own Belgian Lernout & Hauspie was also targeted by something you are in compl…

I have no clue what level of industrial espionage takes place in the US or China but the fact that it _has_ occurred in both places does not speak to the frequency and severity that these types of actions are taken. All your examples could be true and still the Chinese govt. could be orders of magnitude worse.

To me all of this is nearly irrelevant to OP's original point which was taking an American company's manufacturing to China is a risk. I don't think OP was implicitly making the claim that moving a Chinese company's manufacturing to the US is less of a risk. That seems to be the tangent that the comment thread has taken but it was not part of the original comment. I think there is more of a risk that the Chinese government will steal the IP from Apple in China than the US government will steal the IP from Apple in the US.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#207

Post by throwmex » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #177

riq_ wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. First of all: You are not wrong. But similar things can be said about USA. USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they m…

"USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they mention it, they will put phrase it like "America liberated the population of Irak " This is complete rubbish. The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level, where China is. Second - geopolitical issues have nothing to do with theft of IP,…

> The oil belongs to the people of Iraq.

So they will soon be rich like the Saudis in the near future ?

You are kidding right ? This is what your medias are telling you ? Do you know what lead to the refugee crisis and other IS* organizations in the middle east ? The Banana Republics in South America ?

Why is Saudi a saint while other nations in middle east are bad actors ?

The rhetoric on China sounds like sour grapes to me.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#208

Post by majia » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

tnolet wrote: post #130

muzani wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say China is unstable? The US is talking about starting a war, had government shutdown issues recently, and has a president that is abrasive on foreign affairs. UK is dealing with brexit. China may have the issue with HK recently, but to an outsider, they look more stable. Of course, something like Japan or Australia seems better, but China isn't a terrible choice.

China is stable because it is a totalitarian dictatorship that jails critics, has no free press and no real elections.

No. Chinese people overthrew many kings and dictators far more oppressive than CCP in its long history. China is stable because CCP delivered economic results, lifting hundreds of millions of people out of extreme poverty. So a stable but oppressive CCP gov has been tolerated so far.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#209

Post by throwmex » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

hugi wrote: post #167

40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

I'm constantly amazed by how Americans think they're so awesome that they think they can criticize China politically.

Don't you dare say that the emperor is nude. You will be shown the guillotine.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#210

Post by josho » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

ProAm wrote: post #53

josho wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple previously (years ago) spoke about the importance of the supply chain, not price as the reason to mfg in China. Steve Jobs gave an example that if you needed to change the design to use a different type of screw then you'd have several manufacturers nearby that you could source from. That's just not possible in the US.

> That's just not possible in the US. This is a chicken and egg argument. Supply and demand fixes these things.

Yes. And there is no supply and no demand. I don’t see how you bring back either unless you are willing to support tariffs.