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Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

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Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#61

Post by sowbug »

WA9ACE wrote: post #53
kayfox wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be a violation if it involved a business transaction that was not related to ham radio equipment. Buying, selling and trading equipment related to ham radio is the only exception to the rule against business transactions that I am aware of.

Any form of encryption on amateur radio frequencies is prohibited under FCC Rules Part §97.113 Prohibited transmissions Section 4 http://www.arrl.org/part-97-text . This makes things like TCP/IP over HAM frequencies legal (as seen here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMPRNet ) but not SSL traffic. No business transaction required.

Bitcoin doesn't use encryption. I don't know whether LN does.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#62

Post by bwigfield »

ahje wrote: post #54
djbelieny wrote: post #50

Funny thing, out of the blue I decided to take practice tests for a ham license last night. Took the practice test about 12 times and got passing score 7 times. Opened HN today and this is one of the top articles... Interesting coincidence.

The amount of HAM/radio-related topics on HN has definitely gotten me interested. Time for a new hobby? :)

Absolutely. Its a blast and a great way to meet other technical minded folk or aren't necessarily the same you'd run into just doing programming type stuff.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#63

Post by vvanders »

throw20102010 wrote: post #45
tuxxy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are hams the closest thing to the equivalent of tech tattle-tales? Any time I see someone doing something neat and legally grey on radio, some ham operator has to come in, quote their understanding of the law, and chastise everyone. What's the point? Do they get to feel some sense of authority and privilege that the rest of the nerd world don't for a few minutes? Just let people do cool stuff and don't snitch.

Hams are continuously fighting to keep their spectrum (and slowly losing it to commercial interests). It is a commonly held belief that unlicensed hackers or hams breaking the law hurts the community’s arguments for keeping their spectrum. So it’s not viewed in the ham community as tattling, but rather self policing. Because if they don’t do it themselves then papa FCC is just going to take away everyone’s toys. Resp…

Yup, similar thing in model rocketry circles for similar reasons.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#64

Post by ryanmercer »

JudgeWapner wrote: post #59
djbelieny wrote: post #50

Funny thing, out of the blue I decided to take practice tests for a ham license last night. Took the practice test about 12 times and got passing score 7 times. Opened HN today and this is one of the top articles... Interesting coincidence.

don't do it. my roommate has an HF rig and looks boring af. couple grand worth of gear so they can key down, say "K2185B6 broadcasting from $LOCATION_1", 5 seconds later someone else says "hi K2185B6, lound and clear. This is K8407W4 from $LOCATION_2". rinse, repeat

Basically this. I was all like "yeah man I want to get a license" then I studied some, decided I couldn't afford the gear. Couple years later, oh hey man I'm gonna do this this time, money is better now and stuff, started studying agian and bought a cheap baofeng just to listen.

Spent about 15 minutes listening to a repeater.

"Jesus, these people are abrasive as best, all they are doing is saying their call over and over and complaining"

Stopped studying, couple weeks later was at a friend's house and near a different repeater, same stuff different people. Now I just keep the battery maintained and it tuned to a weather broadcast in the event I lose power during a storm.

I mean, in the event of a natural disaster it's pretty cool and you can help replay information and be of use to your community but ehhhh it's an awfully expensive hobby for that unless you want to just buy a cheap handheld and have no range whatsoever since you have an antenna the size of a drinking straw a few inches away from your body.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#66

Post by upofadown »

There are some claims here that encryption is illegal over amateur radio. That is not true in general. For example, this is what the FCC prohibits in their rules:

>messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning

... which can be read here:

* http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/March%208,%202018....

So ultimate intent is what matters. A test bitcoin transaction is probably legal even if it were somehow incidentally encrypted.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#67

Post by someguydave »

vitaflo wrote: post #56
tuxxy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are hams the closest thing to the equivalent of tech tattle-tales? Any time I see someone doing something neat and legally grey on radio, some ham operator has to come in, quote their understanding of the law, and chastise everyone. What's the point? Do they get to feel some sense of authority and privilege that the rest of the nerd world don't for a few minutes? Just let people do cool stuff and don't snitch.

Tattle-tales? These are federal laws, not some personal guidelines we're talking about. Screwing with them not only lands you in trouble but all of ham radio, because the government is always looking for reasons to take away spectrum and sell it to the highest bidder. Radio spectrum is a finite resource, you can't make more of it. So expect hams to be cranky when people are fucking around and trying to ruin it for us…

Technically CFR Title 47 part 97 are not federal laws but are instead FCC regulations. Consider talking to a lawyer about the difference.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#68

Post by someguydave »

throw20102010 wrote: post #45
tuxxy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are hams the closest thing to the equivalent of tech tattle-tales? Any time I see someone doing something neat and legally grey on radio, some ham operator has to come in, quote their understanding of the law, and chastise everyone. What's the point? Do they get to feel some sense of authority and privilege that the rest of the nerd world don't for a few minutes? Just let people do cool stuff and don't snitch.

Hams are continuously fighting to keep their spectrum (and slowly losing it to commercial interests). It is a commonly held belief that unlicensed hackers or hams breaking the law hurts the community’s arguments for keeping their spectrum. So it’s not viewed in the ham community as tattling, but rather self policing. Because if they don’t do it themselves then papa FCC is just going to take away everyone’s toys. Resp…

I’m an extra class and I’ve heard this argument my entire life. I think it’s bunk. If Congress wants to take away anything they don’t need a reason.

You know what will make ham radio lose its spectrum? Have zero constituency, which will happen once we have run off anyone who wants to experiment on the edge of what is possible with ham radio.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#69

Post by logfromblammo »

someguydave wrote: post #68
throw20102010 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hams are continuously fighting to keep their spectrum (and slowly losing it to commercial interests). It is a commonly held belief that unlicensed hackers or hams breaking the law hurts the community’s arguments for keeping their spectrum. So it’s not viewed in the ham community as tattling, but rather self policing. Because if they don’t do it themselves then papa FCC is just going to take away everyone’s toys. Resp…

I’m an extra class and I’ve heard this argument my entire life. I think it’s bunk. If Congress wants to take away anything they don’t need a reason. You know what will make ham radio lose its spectrum? Have zero constituency, which will happen once we have run off anyone who wants to experiment on the edge of what is possible with ham radio.

No users means no one left to object when the band is taken away and given to someone else.

I have zero interest in unencrypted over-the-air communications. The Internet can already trivially reach stations all the way out to the antipode of the planet, at any time of day or night, with my choice of public or private messaging. I can't wait until the spectrum-protectionist people die off and yield the bandwidth to the SDR robot builders that can use it for a digital transport layer.

Once the technical capabilities surpass the administrative permissions, the fun of hacking anything dies, for exactly the reason mentioned. Rather than the hardware saying "you can't do that", it's some old-guard buttinsky, and when the hacker says "wanna bet?", rather than slowly yielding to relentless experimentation, they make a call or two and then the hacker gets fined or their equipment is seized.

When every interesting application I can think of for ham radio has a regulation explicitly saying "no, that's not allowed", people just find another hobby to get into.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#70

Post by dang »

jkoberg wrote: post #55
nvk wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I'm not in the USA and i'm licensed. You could say the ITU may take issue. 2. The spirit of the law is in regards to actual financial interest, this were meaningless amounts and also testnet. 3. Transactions were not actually done over Ham, the transaction data was relayed over ham and broadcasted via internet. (long history of HAM 3rd party message relay). 4. No encrypted messages were transmitted. (and encryptio…

> "in countries where the laws don't matter" Race-to-the-bottom thinking, poor ethical reasoning, and just an excuse to engage in behavior frowned upon by the community. > "In case of emergency it would be allowed to make financial transactions and/or send encrypted messages." HAHAH no. "Emergency" is clearly defined and doesn't mean "can't reach my ATM". Executing your bitcoin transaction does not save life or limb.

Would you mind reviewing the site guidelines and refraining from flamewar-style comments here?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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