Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Bad Are Things? (2015)

slatestarcodex.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 144 posts

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#131

Post by watwut »

ehvatum wrote: post #120
michaelmrose wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that somewhere other people have it worse has never been a valid or meaningful response to suffering. It is so facile it works on almost any level of horror. You could fallaciously say I'm sorry you had your legs eaten by bears but did you hear about joe, joe was eaten alive by ants! Your anecdote regarding your would be boot camp is probably off topic but allowing people to abrogate basic human rights so yo…

It is not facile to ask if experiencing deprivation is a necessary condition for experiencing happiness. Consider that strength training develops muscles. Does facing genuine adversity develop emotional response such that people become capable of enjoying a world of plenty?

Maybe, but also groups who experienced serious deprivation have on average worst outcomes. They take drugs more often, they are more violent, they have all kinds of mental problems.

Veterans, former political prisoners, post-war countries, poor social classes etc have a lot of mental health and depression related problems. They may enjoy world of plenty the way we don't, but they have issues we don't.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#132

Post by 3minus1 »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #99
Maxbunny wrote: post #98

Love the blog, but this is one of the weaker pieces. There is ABUNDANT data on this topic, which all point to the large majority of people being mostly content with their life. This result holds true even for low income countries, but not for the poorest countries. Even without looking at data, the author should consider that his patients come to him to specifically talk about their problems, and not what is going we…

Can you link to that abundant data and provide evidence for your claim?

In Thinking Fast and Slow, Kahneman talks about an experiment where they had people answer a quick questionaire about their immediate emotional state throughout the day, kind of like sampling. Something like are you stressed, angry, happy, etc. at this very moment. If I remember correctly, the results showed that most people are fine most of the time, but a small number of people are in constant emotional distress.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#133

Post by g_sch »

D-Coder wrote: post #103
rofo1 wrote: post #82

> This is also why I am wary whenever people start boasting > about how much better we’re doing than back in the bad old > days. That precise statement seems to in fact be true. But > people have a bad tendency to follow it up with “And so > now most people have it pretty good”. I don’t think we > have any idea how many people do or don’t have it pretty good. We do have it good. Would you rather be middle class today…

> We do have it good. Would you rather be middle class today or a king in 18th century? > > We have it amazingly good. The fact that we can't see this ("we" as in society) tells me that our appetites are impossible to satisfy. I completely agree with your first point. I think your second point may be wrong; rather, people have very little knowledge of how things used to be, so every stubbed toe feels cosmic. (Remembe…

I understand what you're driving at, but I think war is actually a pretty good example of something that's become significantly worse over time. It used to be fought on a small scale. The biggest battles had just a few thousand casualties.

Today, war is total, nothing is off-limits, and global conflicts reach levels of destruction unimaginable in the 15th century. And a few nations possess enough firepower, in nuclear and conventional form, to essentially end human existence on earth if they choose.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#134

Post by Maxbunny »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #99
Maxbunny wrote: post #98

Love the blog, but this is one of the weaker pieces. There is ABUNDANT data on this topic, which all point to the large majority of people being mostly content with their life. This result holds true even for low income countries, but not for the poorest countries. Even without looking at data, the author should consider that his patients come to him to specifically talk about their problems, and not what is going we…

Can you link to that abundant data and provide evidence for your claim?

Sure, have a look here:

https://ourworldindata.org/happiness-and-life-satisfaction

The second chart of the page shows the share of people who say they are either very happy or mostly happy, click on "Map" in the bottom right corner to see all the countries for which data is available.

Sample: US: 90 percent say they are happy China: 85 % Ethiopia: 63 %

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#135

Post by threwawasy1228 »

aidenn0 wrote: post #124
michaelmrose wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally she would tell the son he can go to rehab or get turned in to the authorities.

Getting turned into the authorities often doesn't really accomplish anything. Here's a typical case: Meth addicted neglectful mother has dozens of reports from several sources of varying credibility (e.g. reports from an ex-boyfriend are immediately discounted as likely retribution). Each time, Child Welfare Services shows up checks that there are no bruises on kid, food in the cabinet ,and a bed for the kid and then…

CPS are often terribly trained and sometimes downright horrible people. They do all sorts of large scale scrutiny on perfectly fine homes, and then will turn a blind eye on children who are being horribly neglected. They tear families apart and force parents to fight for years in court to get their children back, irrevocably messing up the childs psychology in the process. Here is a former CPS agent talking about the horrific misconduct he saw amongst his fellow CPS workers.[0]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyc9Zn3iWQk

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#136

Post by belorn »

ehvatum wrote: post #120
michaelmrose wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that somewhere other people have it worse has never been a valid or meaningful response to suffering. It is so facile it works on almost any level of horror. You could fallaciously say I'm sorry you had your legs eaten by bears but did you hear about joe, joe was eaten alive by ants! Your anecdote regarding your would be boot camp is probably off topic but allowing people to abrogate basic human rights so yo…

It is not facile to ask if experiencing deprivation is a necessary condition for experiencing happiness. Consider that strength training develops muscles. Does facing genuine adversity develop emotional response such that people become capable of enjoying a world of plenty?

I have a hard time believing that people who experience war are happier on average than those that don't. People who have trained in suffering and deprivation might overcome it in despite such experience, but I would not bet on the average.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#137

Post by f02a »

alecmg wrote: post #79
throwayEngineer wrote: post #12

What should humanity do? The big hitters are Drug addiction and Chronic Pain. I don't have a solution for drug addiction, but I can't blame our generation for not finding a solution. No generation has, and given caffeine addiction, it's extremely hard for others to help with. Chronic Pain needs to end. Between Doctors of Physical Therapy and medications, there are little reason for people to be experiencing chronic p…

> given caffeine addiction Caffeine is not addictive. Physiological effect of constant coffee drinking go away without side effects after two weeks. It has no (known) negative effects on health or sociological function as actual drugs have. I can't figure out why you mentioned caffeine at all

I think I'm a caffeine addict. If I try to quit caffeine, I'll have flu-like symptoms and migraines for at least a week or two. I can see how that's less bad than a heroin addiction, but isn't addiction somewhat of a spectrum?

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#138

Post by ehvatum »

michaelmrose wrote: post #121
ehvatum wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not facile to ask if experiencing deprivation is a necessary condition for experiencing happiness. Consider that strength training develops muscles. Does facing genuine adversity develop emotional response such that people become capable of enjoying a world of plenty?

I think the proximity and ultimate fact of death first around us and then ultimately happening to us is sufficient deprivation to appreciate life. Suffering is more likely to stunt then enrich.

Suffering that does not respond to effort is definitely stunting. The thesis motivating my muskeg boot-camp concept is that participants exit the wilderness under their own power and therefore develop agency.

My perspective on this is somewhat unusual; I chose to canoe across Manitoba because I felt like I was a weakling who had never truly confronted necessity. It took three weeks, and I remember thinking, many times, "this absolutely and completely sucks, but I'm going to remember this as a great experience." Sure enough, that is the case.

There is a lot of masochism in my life because I depend on it to keep depression away. It is for my spirit what gravity is for my body - in the sense that long term zero-G exposure is unhealthy. I can't help but think a persevering experience would help these folks, whose lives are apparently so unchallenged that the mundane necessities of day-to-day existence grow untenable.

That's a result of my perspective, which is the perspective of a masochist. I am aware that pain and pleasure are linked for me to an unusual degree. I feel like it should be that way for everyone, and they're really missing out! I guess I'd be a pretty terrible therapist.

If only we all had suffering as an immediate consequence of not living up to our potential, you know? It would be better. So I'm prescribing shock collar controlled by an iOS/Android app that monitors subject behavior... It could really help these people realize that they were correct to think that they ought to be happy with their non-shock-collar lives! And they would be!

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#139

Post by barry-cotter »

QuadrupleA wrote: post #92

There does seem to be a certain "external things are the reason for my misery" thread through all these stories that bugs me, even though it's an interesting and well-written piece. These patients, with the exact same circumstances, could have found some peace by accepting and working within their constraints - the 70-year old woman could accept the situation with the granddaughter and find other outlets for caretaki…

> the 70-year old woman could accept the situation with the granddaughter and find other outlets for caretaking or being with children, or tried a legal way to address the situation

Wow, what a simultaneously disgusting and ignorant sentiment. Disgusting, because it assumes children, family and relationships are fungible, and ignorant, because it assumes grandparents have rights of some kind, when they don’t.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#140

Post by QuadrupleA »

barry-cotter wrote: post #139
QuadrupleA wrote: post #92

There does seem to be a certain "external things are the reason for my misery" thread through all these stories that bugs me, even though it's an interesting and well-written piece. These patients, with the exact same circumstances, could have found some peace by accepting and working within their constraints - the 70-year old woman could accept the situation with the granddaughter and find other outlets for caretaki…

> the 70-year old woman could accept the situation with the granddaughter and find other outlets for caretaking or being with children, or tried a legal way to address the situation Wow, what a simultaneously disgusting and ignorant sentiment. Disgusting, because it assumes children, family and relationships are fungible, and ignorant, because it assumes grandparents have rights of some kind, when they don’t.

What a nasty reply. Is it so inconceivable that the (hypothetical) woman might have maternal / nurturing instincts that strict blood relations aren't the only possible outlet for? Obviously it's a tragedy, for the granddaughter in particular, and if anything at all can be done about the situation then it should be, but sometimes these things are complicated and there aren't a lot of options and you just have to accept and make peace. Or be full of futile, useless anger that pollutes the rest of your life and the people around you.

Also I just said "legal", e.g. child protective services or notifying police, not Legal Rights of Grandmothers On Their Grandchildren or whatever you're assuming.

Post reply on HN