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Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

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Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#51

Post by jrockway »

tuxxy wrote: post #40
ihuman wrote: post #6

I don't think this is allowed under USA Amateur radio rules. > §97.113 Prohibited transmissions. > (b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules ; nor shall an amateur station engage in any activity related to program production or news gathering for broadcasting purposes, except that commu…

Why are hams the closest thing to the equivalent of tech tattle-tales? Any time I see someone doing something neat and legally grey on radio, some ham operator has to come in, quote their understanding of the law, and chastise everyone. What's the point? Do they get to feel some sense of authority and privilege that the rest of the nerd world don't for a few minutes? Just let people do cool stuff and don't snitch.

Because breaking the rules ruins it for everyone. With very little equipment and effort, you can completely shut down portions of the ham band worldwide. A handful of people decide to do this, and the ability is gone for everyone.

What little space we do have allocated to us is constantly under attack, because there's always money to be made from selling RF spectrum. If VHF/UHF becomes just a place for computers sending cryptocurrency to each other, eventually the FCC is going to step in and decide "hey, we could be selling this!" Then it's gone forever, and the age of radio experimentation is over.

If you want to go interfere with licensed transmissions to protest the FCC, go for it! I hope you enjoy the inside of federal courtrooms, though.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#52

Post by fr0sty »

tuxxy wrote: post #40
ihuman wrote: post #6

I don't think this is allowed under USA Amateur radio rules. > §97.113 Prohibited transmissions. > (b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules ; nor shall an amateur station engage in any activity related to program production or news gathering for broadcasting purposes, except that commu…

Why are hams the closest thing to the equivalent of tech tattle-tales? Any time I see someone doing something neat and legally grey on radio, some ham operator has to come in, quote their understanding of the law, and chastise everyone. What's the point? Do they get to feel some sense of authority and privilege that the rest of the nerd world don't for a few minutes? Just let people do cool stuff and don't snitch.

Hams care about people following FCC rules in much the same way gun owners care about ATF regulations, or car-club members care about whether modifications are steet-legal (or CA Smog-legal), or DIY forum people care about work being permitted and done to code, etc. etc.

Some of it is people being cranky, sure, but breaking the rules and regulations of a federal agency is generally not the best idea even if you don't mean any harm by it.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#53

Post by WA9ACE »

kayfox wrote: post #20
Stratoscope wrote: post #16

Much of the article is about Brian Goss's setup. Goss is not using ham radio. He is receiving satellite broadcasts and re-transmitting them with a goTenna device into the goTenna mesh network. goTenna is a Part 15 (unlicensed) device, like a Wi-Fi router or Bluetooth device. It does not transmit on Amateur Radio frequencies. Unless I missed something, there is no connection with ham radio here. The article also menti…

It may be a violation if it involved a business transaction that was not related to ham radio equipment. Buying, selling and trading equipment related to ham radio is the only exception to the rule against business transactions that I am aware of.

Any form of encryption on amateur radio frequencies is prohibited under FCC Rules Part §97.113 Prohibited transmissions Section 4 http://www.arrl.org/part-97-text. This makes things like TCP/IP over HAM frequencies legal (as seen here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMPRNet) but not SSL traffic. No business transaction required.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#54

Post by ahje »

djbelieny wrote: post #50

Funny thing, out of the blue I decided to take practice tests for a ham license last night. Took the practice test about 12 times and got passing score 7 times. Opened HN today and this is one of the top articles... Interesting coincidence.

The amount of HAM/radio-related topics on HN has definitely gotten me interested. Time for a new hobby? :)

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#55

Post by jkoberg »

nvk wrote: post #39
zrobotics wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I'll bite: mind addressing the legality issues many of the other commenter have brought up? Because this looks like a great way to get a FCC fine.

1. I'm not in the USA and i'm licensed. You could say the ITU may take issue. 2. The spirit of the law is in regards to actual financial interest, this were meaningless amounts and also testnet. 3. Transactions were not actually done over Ham, the transaction data was relayed over ham and broadcasted via internet. (long history of HAM 3rd party message relay). 4. No encrypted messages were transmitted. (and encryptio…

> "in countries where the laws don't matter"

Race-to-the-bottom thinking, poor ethical reasoning, and just an excuse to engage in behavior frowned upon by the community.

> "In case of emergency it would be allowed to make financial transactions and/or send encrypted messages."

HAHAH no. "Emergency" is clearly defined and doesn't mean "can't reach my ATM". Executing your bitcoin transaction does not save life or limb.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#56

Post by vitaflo »

tuxxy wrote: post #40
ihuman wrote: post #6

I don't think this is allowed under USA Amateur radio rules. > §97.113 Prohibited transmissions. > (b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules ; nor shall an amateur station engage in any activity related to program production or news gathering for broadcasting purposes, except that commu…

Why are hams the closest thing to the equivalent of tech tattle-tales? Any time I see someone doing something neat and legally grey on radio, some ham operator has to come in, quote their understanding of the law, and chastise everyone. What's the point? Do they get to feel some sense of authority and privilege that the rest of the nerd world don't for a few minutes? Just let people do cool stuff and don't snitch.

Tattle-tales? These are federal laws, not some personal guidelines we're talking about. Screwing with them not only lands you in trouble but all of ham radio, because the government is always looking for reasons to take away spectrum and sell it to the highest bidder. Radio spectrum is a finite resource, you can't make more of it. So expect hams to be cranky when people are fucking around and trying to ruin it for us.

Be thankful you only have to deal with irritated hams and not a team of Verizon lawyers.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#57

Post by jkoberg »

sciurus wrote: post #11
ignaloidas wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>Private messages (...) are prohibited in Ham Radio > Broadcasts are also prohibited in ham radio. Wait what? Isn't any message either broadcast or private?

No, it's either one-way or two-way. One-way is usually prohibited except in a few case, two-way is usually fine unless it violates one of the prohibitions like encryption. Your two-way communications using ham radio are public, not private.

"Broadcast" is defined as "transmissions for the consumption by the general public", at least in the US. Not one-way vs two-way.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#58

Post by RandallBrown »

jkoberg wrote: post #55
nvk wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I'm not in the USA and i'm licensed. You could say the ITU may take issue. 2. The spirit of the law is in regards to actual financial interest, this were meaningless amounts and also testnet. 3. Transactions were not actually done over Ham, the transaction data was relayed over ham and broadcasted via internet. (long history of HAM 3rd party message relay). 4. No encrypted messages were transmitted. (and encryptio…

> "in countries where the laws don't matter" Race-to-the-bottom thinking, poor ethical reasoning, and just an excuse to engage in behavior frowned upon by the community. > "In case of emergency it would be allowed to make financial transactions and/or send encrypted messages." HAHAH no. "Emergency" is clearly defined and doesn't mean "can't reach my ATM". Executing your bitcoin transaction does not save life or limb.

He's saying that executing a bitcoin transaction could save life or limb, which justifies bending/breaking the rules to develop the technology to do it.

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#59

Post by JudgeWapner »

djbelieny wrote: post #50

Funny thing, out of the blue I decided to take practice tests for a ham license last night. Took the practice test about 12 times and got passing score 7 times. Opened HN today and this is one of the top articles... Interesting coincidence.

don't do it. my roommate has an HF rig and looks boring af. couple grand worth of gear so they can key down, say "K2185B6 broadcasting from $LOCATION_1", 5 seconds later someone else says "hi K2185B6, lound and clear. This is K8407W4 from $LOCATION_2". rinse, repeat

Re: Cypherpunks Tapping Bitcoin via Ham Radio

#60

Post by gjs278 »

vitaflo wrote: post #56
tuxxy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are hams the closest thing to the equivalent of tech tattle-tales? Any time I see someone doing something neat and legally grey on radio, some ham operator has to come in, quote their understanding of the law, and chastise everyone. What's the point? Do they get to feel some sense of authority and privilege that the rest of the nerd world don't for a few minutes? Just let people do cool stuff and don't snitch.

Tattle-tales? These are federal laws, not some personal guidelines we're talking about. Screwing with them not only lands you in trouble but all of ham radio, because the government is always looking for reasons to take away spectrum and sell it to the highest bidder. Radio spectrum is a finite resource, you can't make more of it. So expect hams to be cranky when people are fucking around and trying to ruin it for us…

yawn. you probably violate hundreds of federal laws. this one is practically unenforceable and I doubt anyone really cares or gets in trouble for it.
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