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Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

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Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implied logic is "This person was Great, and said X, therefore X is Good". It is only fair to point out this can be used to support the almost polar opposite of the quote you chose. I mean, people should make up their own minds, instead of being swayed by authority, no? And the Einstein quote wasn't aimed at 'any' race - it was aimed specifically at the Chinese. The implication being that being supplanted by the…

The implied logic you name is actually your presumed logic. I certainly don't read that logic into every time someone uses a quote. Quotes can be used to show that past generations have said similar or relevant things Quotes can be used because they were interestingly or eloquently phrased Quotes can evoke someone's connection to a subject without relying on an appeal to authority. Probably the last thing I'd assume…

> Such a logic would probably be expressed explicitly if it was key to the message.

Not if you don't want the audience to critically examine it. Commercials don't say "product X will give you a happy family" - they just happen to show a happy family using product X.

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#42
post #34
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does treating a nation as an extended tribe require explaining atrocities in Africa? If someone claimed a tribe is an extended family, would you demand he explain family feuds?

Because when the central power which designed the border and defined them as a nation, is going away, old tribal tension and conflict are resurging. Leading to inter-tribe genocide. Therefore, tribalism has nothing to do with nationalism... :)

You are missing the point. He's explicitly saying those _States_ aren't _Nations_. Hence the term "Nation-State" where a state is coterminous with a nation.

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#44
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and? Quoting a person doesn't mean blanket agreement to anything else they said, it's usually more about agreeing with the quote. As for Einstein, it would be a pity if any "race" would supplant all others.. do you disagree? How is that some kind of "gotcha" quote in your mind?

The implied logic is "This person was Great, and said X, therefore X is Good". It is only fair to point out this can be used to support the almost polar opposite of the quote you chose. I mean, people should make up their own minds, instead of being swayed by authority, no? And the Einstein quote wasn't aimed at 'any' race - it was aimed specifically at the Chinese. The implication being that being supplanted by the…

> The implied logic is "This person was Great, and said X, therefore X is Good"

It's supposed by you, not automatically implied by quoting someone; that just implies "this is an eloquent way to phrase something I agree with, and this is the source".

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implied logic you name is actually your presumed logic. I certainly don't read that logic into every time someone uses a quote. Quotes can be used to show that past generations have said similar or relevant things Quotes can be used because they were interestingly or eloquently phrased Quotes can evoke someone's connection to a subject without relying on an appeal to authority. Probably the last thing I'd assume…

> Such a logic would probably be expressed explicitly if it was key to the message. Not if you don't want the audience to critically examine it. Commercials don't say "product X will give you a happy family" - they just happen to show a happy family using product X.

The subject is Einstein. The Darwin quote also fit perfectly to humanity being "just one big tribe", and both quotes expand that to sentient beings. That was my point, not "yeah, Darwin also said something similar and is also considered important, so it's double true".

I'd be happy for you to critically examine both, and express any issues you have with the actual content of the quotes. But you're not doing that, you're doing anything but that. That's not my intention, that's your choice.

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#47
post #17

Nationalism is an extension of tribalism which is inherited in human beings, it's in our DNA [1]. We, as a species, may override our instincts to do what we feel is better for humanity, but then again humanity is just a larger tribe. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/life-is-trip/201208/... [2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/our-emotional-footpr...

We've seen nations grow beyond the bounds of tribal/regional origins into ethnically diverse multicultural and multilingual economic powerhouses. The US and most European countries are good examples of this. As long as a lingua franca remains mostly dominant and people acclimate to others acting differently around them, it's a perfectly natural state. Ancient Rome and Ancient China both prospered economically under t…

"The US and most European countries"

More likely European nations are still mostly ethnocentric whereby the clear majority of the populations identify with a group that is historically part of that territory.

Which is fundamentally different from US, Canada, Singapore and even Central/South American nations which have yet another aspect.

"Ancient Rome and Ancient China both prospered economically under these conditions. "

Ancient Rome invaded, plundered, occupied and demanded ongoing massive tributes from it's territories. Even most of the Italian peninsula were technically slaves.

The basis of 'prosperity' in Roman territories mostly boils down to physical security, i.e. 'Pax Romana'

"Nationalism in all it's incarnations has historically been an attempt to reassert tribal balance in favor of some formerly dominant but now sub-dominant group and it rarely ends well for that group."

Maybe you should offer some examples here, because I can't think of a single one.

- Quebec nationalism resulted in a 'quiet revolution' and an officially bilingual federal state.

- Scottish nationalism resulted in devolution.

- Nazi/German nationalism in both World Wars wasn't exactly the reassertion of a 'formerly dominant state' - moreover, now that France is weakened and the UK is 'out' - Germany's dominance of the EU is basically unchallenged.

- Russian nationalism has been fairly strong since the modern concept of nationalism.

- Nationalist movements throughout the post WW2 era resulted in the ostensible freedom of many powers from former colonial rule: Egypt, Libya, Algeria. (That list is very long.)

FYI the modern concept of 'Nationalism' is merely a civic orientation of that which existed before (and still does) i.e. 'ethnicity'.

Sweden and Finland do not share totally arbitrary borders.

The border between Finland and Sweden is such that the relative ethnic populations of Swedes and Finns are contiguous, i.e. Sweden is where the Swedish people live, Finland is where the Finns live - mostly.

The ethnocentric nature of the nation state is still obvious today by the fact that many ethnic Swedes for example live in Finland, and are demarcated as a separate group - not just people who 'speak a different language', bur rather, they are of a different ethnicity than Finns, although technically of the same legal nationality.

Though nationalism is very different in a place like the USS or Canada, it's still forms part of people's natural identity.

Family, tribe, ethnic group, 'nation' (be it ethnic or idealist) are part of who we are; to ignore this would be to ignore the very nature of who we are.

That said, some things, like Scientific knowledge tend to be humanist, i.e. transcending ethnicities, and of course we often need to be reminded of this.

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#48
post #23
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tribalism is based on blood ties between member of a group. This has nothing to do with nationalism which is the most evoluted social structure where blood ties where replaced by common morales, culture and languages. Tribalism is a very low form of social structure, highly linked to our primal condition of mammal individual. Nationalism and sovereignety are far more advanced social structure in an attempt to extract…

> This has nothing to do with nationalism A nation is just a larger tribe - people are more closely related to others in their own nation, than to those in foreign nations.

I'm curious as to what extent this sense of feeling closely related is also a product of ideology and further how it's reacting to globalization. Can this feeling of closeness be tied to particular biological factors, and how do we know if it can? How is it that many of us (especially online) feel much closer to individuals from other places than to our own countrypeople?

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#49

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/what-was-einstein-s-relations... Einstein views were conflicted. He was very pro-nationalist where it was a Jewish concern. He felt this was forced, but that doesn't change his position.

Good for me not for thee.

Re: Einstein's Science Defied Nationalism and Crossed Borders

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've seen nations grow beyond the bounds of tribal/regional origins into ethnically diverse multicultural and multilingual economic powerhouses. The US and most European countries are good examples of this. As long as a lingua franca remains mostly dominant and people acclimate to others acting differently around them, it's a perfectly natural state. Ancient Rome and Ancient China both prospered economically under t…

"The US and most European countries" More likely European nations are still mostly ethnocentric whereby the clear majority of the populations identify with a group that is historically part of that territory. Which is fundamentally different from US, Canada, Singapore and even Central/South American nations which have yet another aspect. "Ancient Rome and Ancient China both prospered economically under these conditio…

I was specifically thinking of the Roman empire at it's apex, ca 300 AD. Romans did employ slave labor but, to my understanding, the percentage of the population that were slaves is still mostly unknown. This paper gives a ballpark figure of 1/3rd of the population of the Italian peninsula.[1]

Ethnocentrism, the attitude that one's own culture is superior, coloring an individual's perceptions of other cultures as inferior and incorrect, has been mostly in decline over the last 70 years in Europe and the US. There has been a slight nationalist push in the other direction in the last 3-4 years but even that seems to be in decline. (Example: Turkey seems to be moving away from their nationalist president.) Russia is going to stay Russia, Stalin killed millions.[2]

Ethnocentrism is not about identifying as part of a group. People retain their cultural identities when taking a multicultural posture adopting the best parts of other cultures and integrating those traits into their lives. American's love doing this and even get accused of cultural appropriation. Just look at American cuisine.

> Though nationalism is very different in a place like the USS or Canada, it's still forms part of people's natural identity.

I don't dispute that American's are patriotic but every city and town is different. Social norms, popular songs on the radio and driving habits all vary across America's cities and towns. American cohesion is mostly due to the power of our popular culture, media, political parties and religions.

> That said, some things, like Scientific knowledge tend to be humanist, i.e. transcending ethnicities, and of course we often need to be reminded of this.

Biased science is bad science.

[1] https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

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