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HTML is the Web

petelambert.com

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Re: HTML is the Web

#251

Post by BlueTemplar »

godshatter wrote: post #150
ecmascript wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is an unpopular opinion, since I am of the same. I agree with you that the URL is the most important feature of the web. Without it, you could just as well deploy native apps because it wouldn't really make that much of a difference. Without javascript and a heavy client side, I wouldn't have a job today since the application I build is simply not possible to create with just html+css. Sure there a…

What we need, in my opinion, is a new protocol. Leave http(s) for documents and make a new protocol designed from the ground up for interactive applications. That solves the problem of trying to shove an application into a document viewing sub-system and should allow for more creativity and efficiency, depending on what this new protocol turns out to be. What's happening now is like trying to force ftp to show docume…

Don't we already have that with TCP and/or UDP ?

Re: HTML is the Web

#253

Post by BlueTemplar »

ecmascript wrote: post #22
flohofwoe wrote: post #9

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

I don't think that is an unpopular opinion, since I am of the same. I agree with you that the URL is the most important feature of the web. Without it, you could just as well deploy native apps because it wouldn't really make that much of a difference. Without javascript and a heavy client side, I wouldn't have a job today since the application I build is simply not possible to create with just html+css. Sure there a…

Isn't it pretty hacky to use a Web browser for that instead of a dedicated virtual machine ?

Re: HTML is the Web

#254

Post by godshatter »

ecmascript wrote: post #237
godshatter wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so happy with it, since I'm tired of trying to figure out which domains to allow javascript from when practically every page has a list of a dozen or more. I'm tired of trying to run pages that don't work with any of the browsers I have access to on linux, despite html being a standard. The whole paradigm seems broken to me. It just feels like a monumental kludge.

> any of the browsers I have access to on linux I use linux as well and I have yet to find a webpage that doesn't work with Firefox and Brave. Maybe you shouldn't block javascript and instead block trackers and ads. There are a lot of tools to do that like uBlock Origin, pi-hole, privacy badger etc. Javascript is used by pretty much all websites today to do mostly other stuff than tracking. Why are you blocking it if…

I've had a few sites that wouldn't work for me without booting up my windows laptop and running edge. One of them is the place I make car payments.

I use uBlock Origin at home. I use NoScript at work. I like it because it blocks ads and because it does break much of the web. I don't want auto-playing videos, I don't want an enhanced experience, I just want to find the information I'm looking for. If the website I go to won't show me anything even after enabling the main domain and a CDN, then I move on to the next choice. Enabling js on the main domain usually makes menus and such work. The rest seems to be ad-related, from what I can tell.

There are a handful of sites where I really am looking for an enhanced experience. Mainly my banking sites, sites I frequent for shopping, and some forums. Most other places I visit I'm happy that the site is mostly broken as long as I can see what I went there to find. In many cases, I'd be happier with a 90's era gray page with text and pictures. But then I'm old.

Re: HTML is the Web

#255

Post by BlueTemplar »

u801e wrote: post #70
brightball wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That view of the browser is what I want to have. It blows my mind that we still have to tell people “don’t click links in your email” because it’s still possible for something terrible to happen if they do.

The real question is why should links in an email message be clickable? Restricting email messages to plain text would make it much more difficult for attacks like that to succeed.

URLs are plain text... Can also easily be clickable, depending on your e-mail software.

Re: HTML is the Web

#256

Post by DarkStar851 »

buboard wrote: post #248
joemi wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

` ` was the correct way in XHTML to do HTML5's ` ` (I think ` ` still works in HTML5 or maybe browsers just don't mind it, but it's not the recommended way.)

thanks i never got the news, i hope browsers dont hate me

Haha I've known for years and I still use . Usually the linter will nag me, but otherwise I just don't care enough to fix it.

Re: HTML is the Web

#257

Post by buboard »

DarkStar851 wrote: post #256
buboard wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks i never got the news, i hope browsers dont hate me

Haha I've known for years and I still use . Usually the linter will nag me, but otherwise I just don't care enough to fix it.

i think the feeling of closure i get with the /> is addictive

Re: HTML is the Web

#258

Post by BlueTemplar »

scarface74 wrote: post #85
flohofwoe wrote: post #9

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores. Apple is going down this route with code signing and granular permissions with Macintosh applications that don’t have to be part of the Mac App Store and there is still whining from geeks that this is leading t…

Well, I remember people warning that having an official Android Market would make distributing via side loading not a viable option... Lo and behold, these days Fortnite gets criticized for being delivered via an .apk because it's "unsafe" !

Re: HTML is the Web

#259

Post by pixelbash »

gargravarr wrote: post #38

The biggest takeaway is that HTML was originally designed to degrade gracefully. If your browser didn't support the intended graphical layout, it would still be able to extract the hierarchy and display a usable web page, even if you were using pure text (e.g. lynx). This kept the web accessible no matter what you were using. These days, none of that occurs. Just try switching off Javascript (I use NoScript heavily t…

I feel like I'm going to be in a huge minority here but I am one of those developers that builds websites that won't load without js. Hear me out though.

I primarily work with ecom, and we build highly dynamic sites in an increasingly rapid arms race for engaging design.

Before vue I worked with jQuery like everyone else, controlling the dom manually to react to changes in application state. Those were dark days.

Now I can manage the cart state and increasingly everything else over apis and have the application display all these updates in real time, along with all the whizz bang the design team decides is flavour of the week. All in not much more time than jQuery and basic layouts previously took.

So, sorry if my site doesn't load without JS, but it's not about the ads. The web isn't just document display anymore, everything is an app.

Re: HTML is the Web

#260

Post by BlueTemplar »

amelius wrote: post #120
rocky1138 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but that isn't "the web." You are completely free to write and launch a new app that does this today . Just don't try and shoehorn it into my web browser.

> Ok, but that isn't "the web." It's "the sandboxed, browser agnostic web".

I'm not sure that it can be called "the Web" if it doesn't have directly accessible pages linked by hypertext, instead having a single page/app for instance (even if it runs on the top of the HyperText Protocol...) We're getting into non-Web Internet territory here...
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