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HTML is the Web

petelambert.com

61–70 of 341 posts

Re: HTML is the Web

#61
Idk, on the one hand, HTML is what made the web great as an easy medium for self-publishing. This has now mostly been driven ad absurdum by CSS, the expectations towards super-stylish content, and hence centralized platforms a la github, medium, etc. I mean I'm pretty ok at CSS, but the amount of hacks and stuff you have to do for even the most basic layouting and typographic stuff outside your regular markup is just mind-boggling, and not something you can call reasonable by any measure (including Flexbox and Grid and whatnot). OTOH, coming from print, there just was no blueprint for declarative, interactive, responsive web pages [1] so some concessions had to made wrt to evolution of the web. I always thought of JavaScript as a mid-term measure to try stuff until such a time when we could, from hindsight, integrate declarative UI features into HTML. But that hasn't happened, and HTML has essentially stagnated instead relative to JavaScript and CSS. What we have is this unholy HTML-CSS-JS trinity hardwired into people's heads with strong opinions on which goes where a la "semantic" markup, but absolutely no logical or scientific base for back up. It's all fun until you realize we're going to loose most digital content of our decade, and a once-strong medium for digital communication (markup, HTML) has been overtaken by corporate interests, nerds seeking an intellectual challenge because they can, feature creep and misuse of the web to counter a software crisis, self-sustaining web economies and generational churn, and other unintended consequences.

[1] technically, there was SGML and HyTime, HyperCard, Xanadu

Re: HTML is the Web

#62
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those were all problems but none of them had any real bearing on the general population avoiding it for general sites. The thing is, most people don't want a blank canvas to go nuts with for the general use case. It's too complicated. Suddenly you need to learn entire SDKs and pull in many dependencies just to render text on the screen. The reason HTML and the web was so well accepted back in the day was all you had…

> The thing is, most people don't want a blank canvas to go nuts with for the general use case. Are you kidding me? Flash was an absurdly popular platform. Careers were launched on Newgrounds!

> Are you kidding me? Flash was an absurdly popular platform. Careers were launched on Newgrounds!

I'm not saying it wasn't popular, but what do you think the percent spread was between sites that were fully driven by Flash vs not Flash?

I don't have the stats in front of me, but I would guess it was probably 2% Flash vs 98% non-Flash. Now, a lot of sites had sprinkles of Flash but very few sites in the grand scheme of things were solely rendered with Flash. Part of the 2% were sites like 2advanced studios.

Re: HTML is the Web

#63

As an experiment, I started https://wordsandbuttons.online/ in plain hand-crafted HTML+CSS+JS (JS for the interactive bits only). Every page is self-sufficient, there are no dependencies, no dynamic data exchange, no HTML generators, - nothing. And it works so well, I don't really want any frameworks now. It's perfectly malleable - I can make every page do exactly what I want it to. It's lean and fast - every page ev…

When you're making a site like yours (which is awesome btw) hand-coding HTML and JS works fantastically. You don't need a framework. Frameworks only really start being useful when you're working at scale either across lots of data-driven pages or with multiple developers on the same product.

Re: HTML is the Web

#64

As an experiment, I started https://wordsandbuttons.online/ in plain hand-crafted HTML+CSS+JS (JS for the interactive bits only). Every page is self-sufficient, there are no dependencies, no dynamic data exchange, no HTML generators, - nothing. And it works so well, I don't really want any frameworks now. It's perfectly malleable - I can make every page do exactly what I want it to. It's lean and fast - every page ev…

As an aside, I like your blog and writing style, and the questions dropped in to make it interactive. COBOL ... I got that one. Funny!

Re: HTML is the Web

#65
> In descending order of importance it's the HTML, the CSS, and the behaviour.

I would argue the behavior is more important if the website does anything else other than just show articles.

A beautiful site with no behavior is useless; an ugly site with functioning behavior is not.

Re: HTML is the Web

#66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, most people don't want a blank canvas to go nuts with for the general use case. Are you kidding me? Flash was an absurdly popular platform. Careers were launched on Newgrounds!

> Are you kidding me? Flash was an absurdly popular platform. Careers were launched on Newgrounds! I'm not saying it wasn't popular, but what do you think the percent spread was between sites that were fully driven by Flash vs not Flash? I don't have the stats in front of me, but I would guess it was probably 2% Flash vs 98% non-Flash. Now, a lot of sites had sprinkles of Flash but very few sites in the grand scheme…

> very few sites in the grand scheme of things were solely rendered with Flash

...yeah, because that's not what Flash was about. Flash was an application platform (ok, so more like an Animation platform) first and foremost. Why would anyone run their whole site in flash? It wasn't the right tool for that job.

Re: HTML is the Web

#67

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

That view of the browser is what I want to have. It blows my mind that we still have to tell people “don’t click links in your email” because it’s still possible for something terrible to happen if they do.

Re: HTML is the Web

#68
Agree. Most of Frontend Devs doing React or Vue, don’t know the major aspects of a frontend. Although they are speedy, the quality is low.

Re: HTML is the Web

#69

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

I'm not quite sure how this relates to the original article, but:

> the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police".

> for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores.

The key word here is absolutely "unwilling". All the platform vendors want platform lock-in, they don't want a general purpose platform. Microsoft originally tried to do this to the web with ActiveX, before even Flash. At least Flash was slightly cross-platform in that Adobe provided Mac and Linux versions. These days no platform vendor is going to give up their 30% cut voluntarily.

In a world of fully general app sandboxes, you can switch out your hardware and OS at any time without disrupting your life or business. Therefore those are commoditized, and their price drops to the marginal cost of production - which for software is zero.

(Also I think CS theory took a while to catch up to practical security; everyone used to teach the model in which multi-user systems were trying to protect users from one another, not one where a single-user system is trying to protect the user from predatory apps, viruses and potentially unwanted programs.)

Re: HTML is the Web

#70

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

That view of the browser is what I want to have. It blows my mind that we still have to tell people “don’t click links in your email” because it’s still possible for something terrible to happen if they do.

The real question is why should links in an email message be clickable? Restricting email messages to plain text would make it much more difficult for attacks like that to succeed.
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