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The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

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Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#331

Post by carapace »

pron wrote: post #297
carapace wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Weiner's Cybernetics withered on the vine, or floated off into fluffy "Second Order" cybernetics. There was an experiment, I don't have the details to hand at the moment, I'm sorry, but Gordon Pask and someone else mage a cybernetics "machine" out of a dish of chemicals, and got it to grow an "ear" (filaments that were sensitive to certain sound vibrations, just like the hair cells in your inner ear)! If you real…

My point wasn't about the particular form Weiner's cybernetics ended up taking; I was only commenting on his optimism regarding neural networks in the late forties and early fifties (you can say it's about his vision of Cybernetics rather than it's actual manifestation).

Fair enough.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#332

Post by burnte »

skybrian wrote: post #223
sjy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels harsh to call him naïve because I'm sure I wouldn't have had any more insight, but it is surprising how little we knew about the science of language pre-Chomsky, considering that we have been learning languages for millions of years. Now that we have had several generations of computer technology fall short of the abilities of human translators, it seems obvious that you're probably not going to be able to w…

Did you mean post-Chomsky? It's my understanding that machine translation started to become semi-useful after abandoning traditional grammars (or anything Chomsky would recognize) and switched to statistics.

"It's my understanding that machine translation started to become semi-useful after abandoning traditional grammars (or anything Chomsky would recognize) and switched to statistics."

The same thing happened in speech recognition. IBM started throwing statistical modeling and horsepower at the speech recognition problem, and folks like Kurzweil thought it was inelegant and not "true" speech recognition. However, it serves the purpose, and we know that humans use similar tricks when listening to augment pure recognition. It's harder to hear someone in a loud room if you can't see their mouth, or don't know the context of what they're saying.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#333

Post by burnte »

hodr wrote: post #324
jayd16 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're always going to see #2. Use cases get marketable before they get fully solved so you'll always see pretty good but not great examples. In the mean time there are a lot of things that are solved by neural nets that we take for granted such as voice and face recognition.

Voice is solved? Then wider hall cunt my giggle nexus ever get thaddeus tribbleshits?

That's MISTER Thaddeus Tribbleshits to you.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#334

Post by pslam »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #198
atoav wrote: post #73

At the Biennale in Venice (one of the most important art shows there is) I saw a work which looked like this: There was a metal frame holding two glas plates with ventian sediment inbetween (sand, soil, mud). In the center there was another metal frame which formed a hole. There also were to PCB boards with ATMEGA micro controllers. In the text the artist claimed she controlled the biome of the soil with an AI using…

>> Accidentally (?) she managed to create the best representation of AI I have seen in art: all that counts is that you call it AI even if it is a simple algorithm. Backpropagation, which most researchers will agree is an AI algorithm, is a "simple algorithm". So are many other AI algorithms, some of which are simple enough to be understood so well that most people don't recognise them as AI anymore: search algorithm…

> Backpropagation, which most researchers will agree is an AI algorithm, is a "simple algorithm".

Back-propogation is not an "AI" algorithm.

You are ironically doing exactly what this article is about.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#335

Post by glitchc »

thom wrote: post #58
roenxi wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real issue we are facing is that everything that we thought was not going to be pattern matching and tree search has turned out to be pattern matching and tree search. I remember my father telling me computers were never going to be able to play Chess, because it required creativity for example. Nowadays a neural network with tree search plays chess that looks remarkably human. A lot of problem domains have falle…

My fundamental problem with this viewpoint is that people appear to radically underestimate the amount of training data (all of it incredibly rich in context) that humans have had access to over the course of their lifetimes.

The pool of accurately labelled, relevant, sufficiently diverse, training data is actually rather small per problem.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#336

Post by VBprogrammer »

glitchc wrote: post #288
VBprogrammer wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm doing a bit of hiring at the moment. It's hard to find a single CV which doesn't have some kind of machine learning slant. As much as I think there are plenty of advances in ML left to take, I doubt every graduate will step out into a good application for existing machine learning tools.

Does your job description list machine learning as a requirement? If so, there's your problem. Maybe a chat with HR may be in order.

Definitely not.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#337

Post by nathan_long »

michalu wrote: post #243
minikites wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art is more complicated than that and your dismissive attitude misses the point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67EKAIY43kg

Art is not complicated at all. Art marketers and pseudo-artists like to make it complicated to keep the "contemporary art" scam alive and profitable. That's because real art, like anything (engineering, piano, sports) takes years and years of hard work to perfect the skill which gives the ability to translate your ideas into something beautiful and self-explanatory (when you don't need to be expert to "understand the…

> A great example is when Henry Moore saw Michelangelo and started to cry and confessed the only reason he makes such statues is because he knows "he will never be able to create anything as beautiful as that"

Interesting. Citation?

I personally love this epic ownage: Normal Rockwell painted a Jackson Pollack inside of his own realistic painting. https://triviahappy.com/articles/norman-rockwell-made-fun-of...

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#338

Post by TeMPOraL »

ForHackernews wrote: post #315
TeMPOraL wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it is. I'm also not describing a p-zombie, since I find the whole concept of p-zombies utter nonsense. The general AI I described would have self-reflection, agency and arguably consciousness, yet - per orthogonality thesis - it may not have anything resembling human values.

So like, a sociopath, then? I guess we do know that those can exist.

Yeah, sure. The orthogonality thesis essentially implies than a GAI randomly plucked out of space of possible minds will likely be considered sociopathic by our standards. That is, if we can comprehend its thinking at all. "Not sociopath" is a very particular set of values.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#339

Post by jbay808 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #86
nineteen999 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The list of discrete tasks (games, decision making once the parameters are defined) a computer can't do is a very short list. > I'd be interested in knowing what coungerarguments the people downvoting this comment might know of, which I apparently don't. I didn't downvote, but I will cite artistic endeavours. How long until a film crew of computers can shoot, edit and score a documentary or film that would be inte…

> How long until we could assemble an orchestra of computers that can interpret sheet music with feeling well enough to impress a human audience? As others wrote, this will be the first to go. In fact, I believe current breed of NNs can do this already. Artistic creativity is a trivial problem compared to all others. All you have to do is inject a bit of randomness to the process and then not tell people that the wor…

Yes exactly. You can even get a head start by training on award-winning performances by Izhak Perlman and such, comparing them to the sheet music. Then your NN will be able to read sheet music in the style of Perlman, the same way that GPT2 can write in the style of Tolkien.

Kasparov remarked that Deep Blue seemed to make insightful moves in a way that wasn't machine-like, and he suspected it was human assisted. I don't know if he was right or wrong, but I'm sure today's chess software will feel at least as insightful as Deep Blue did to a chess grandmaster, especially if they think they're playing against a human.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#340

Post by michalu »

nathan_long wrote: post #337
michalu wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art is not complicated at all. Art marketers and pseudo-artists like to make it complicated to keep the "contemporary art" scam alive and profitable. That's because real art, like anything (engineering, piano, sports) takes years and years of hard work to perfect the skill which gives the ability to translate your ideas into something beautiful and self-explanatory (when you don't need to be expert to "understand the…

> A great example is when Henry Moore saw Michelangelo and started to cry and confessed the only reason he makes such statues is because he knows "he will never be able to create anything as beautiful as that" Interesting. Citation? I personally love this epic ownage: Normal Rockwell painted a Jackson Pollack inside of his own realistic painting. https://triviahappy.com/articles/norman-rockwell-made-fun-of...

>Citation

The anecdote is from Moore's exhibition in Krakow, it was discussed there. I will get a precise source in 2 days and post it here.

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