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How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

nytimes.com

41–50 of 113 posts

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#41
post #33
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I'd actually been considering a Times subscription for a while. That's going to be a hell no from me now.

The hack I use for subscriptions is to pay with a money order, mailed to their location. This makes it impossible for them to autorenew. I started doing this after discovering to my dismay that one subscription used my checking account routing number to auto debit a subscription renewal the following year, at a significantly increased rate, direct from my checking account! I don't see how this isn't larceny or bank r…

> after discovering to my dismay that one subscription used my checking account routing number to auto debit a subscription renewal the following year, at a significantly increased rate, direct from my checking account

You might ask your state's banking(?) regulatory authority or attorney general's office about that.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d rather see education in schools teaching people that discounts are sales tactics that should be ignored "I'd rather see education in schools teaching people that $instances-of-abuse are members of $family-of-methods-of-abuse that one should protect themselves against". Funny how for almost everything else, the abuse itself is considered both illegal and morally repugnant, yet abusive sales tactics are legally a…

Where is the abuse? A seller has the right to sell at whatever price they want (assuming non emergency situations). If I'm a seller, I can raise the price 100% at 10AM, and then put a sign that says 70% off. And then the next day, I can reduce the price 100%. The very use of ambiguous wording is a signal that it's a sales tactic. No one advertises 50% off the median average sale price in the past 30 days, because the…

You say elsewhere in the thread; you and others use discounts because it's a psychological trick that makes buyers feel good - and thus more likely to buy.

> If I'm a seller, I can raise the price 100% at 10AM, and then put a sign that says 70% off. And then the next day, I can reduce the price 100%.

Sure, you can do that. Or, you could simply list the price that lets you have some margin while still being competitive. Why would you do the former rather than the latter? Only because of a clear intent to abuse the customer.

> Booking.com claiming so and so is selling out quickly! What is quickly defined as?

Words have meanings. I can't tell you what exactly "quickly" is defined, but I believe everyone reasonable would assume it's something around minutes to hours in this particular business. Ask yourself, what would you assume?

> Until there are falsifiable metrics being falsified, I don't see what the abuse is.

I.e. until there's a clear and unambiguous statement that turns out to be purposefully false, you don't see a problem? Most lies aren't using clear and unambiguous language precisely because that makes them easier to spot; it doesn't change the fact that the intent is malicious towards your fellow human beings.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d rather see education in schools teaching people that discounts are sales tactics that should be ignored "I'd rather see education in schools teaching people that $instances-of-abuse are members of $family-of-methods-of-abuse that one should protect themselves against". Funny how for almost everything else, the abuse itself is considered both illegal and morally repugnant, yet abusive sales tactics are legally a…

Where is the abuse? A seller has the right to sell at whatever price they want (assuming non emergency situations). If I'm a seller, I can raise the price 100% at 10AM, and then put a sign that says 70% off. And then the next day, I can reduce the price 100%. The very use of ambiguous wording is a signal that it's a sales tactic. No one advertises 50% off the median average sale price in the past 30 days, because the…

It's abuse because it's intended to mislead the customer.

And it succeeds at misleading the customer, or nobody would be doing this. A misled customer is not an informed customer. For a free market it's vital that customers are well-informed, therefore this kind of deception hurts the free market. The customer agrees to the transaction based on a lie.

Even if technically, from a certain perspective it's technically true ("this morning before I opened the shop, the price was indeed that much higher for 5 minutes"), it's still deception.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#45
post #33
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I'd actually been considering a Times subscription for a while. That's going to be a hell no from me now.

The hack I use for subscriptions is to pay with a money order, mailed to their location. This makes it impossible for them to autorenew. I started doing this after discovering to my dismay that one subscription used my checking account routing number to auto debit a subscription renewal the following year, at a significantly increased rate, direct from my checking account! I don't see how this isn't larceny or bank r…

[deleted]

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#46
I recall in another FB thread that shaming employees was not totally frowned-upon if it planted the seed in the engineer that they should maybe reflect on what they're contributing to and consider alternative work.

Would shaming designers that are complicit in these dark patterns be a similar, favourable way of movement towards a better direction?

I actually finished a book that tries to do that[1]. But I don't believe enough designers are told from their peers that maybe the way they’re exercising their knowledge of design theory and psychology is being shitty towards people.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44432844-ruined-by-desig...

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#47
post #33
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I'd actually been considering a Times subscription for a while. That's going to be a hell no from me now.

The hack I use for subscriptions is to pay with a money order, mailed to their location. This makes it impossible for them to autorenew. I started doing this after discovering to my dismay that one subscription used my checking account routing number to auto debit a subscription renewal the following year, at a significantly increased rate, direct from my checking account! I don't see how this isn't larceny or bank r…

But in the current economy, people routinely need more than 26^2 subscription services to function!

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#48
post #46

I recall in another FB thread that shaming employees was not totally frowned-upon if it planted the seed in the engineer that they should maybe reflect on what they're contributing to and consider alternative work. Would shaming designers that are complicit in these dark patterns be a similar, favourable way of movement towards a better direction? I actually finished a book that tries to do that[1]. But I don't belie…

Thank you for this point (and book recommendation). It has clarified my thinking on dark patterns, something I've long suspected. We need to (re)educate designers about the mistakes they're making, in service of what I assume are data- hungry marketing employees.

I also enjoyed and support the phrase from the article: "confirmshaming."

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#49
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly it does matter in practice, otherwise discounts wouldn't be worth advertising?

Because people like the feeling of getting a discount. I don't know why, but it satisfies some part of their ego. Discounts don't change the utility of the product or the budget of the buyer or anything, other than the buyer feeling good about themself.

You are way overcomplicating it. People are not talking about comparing the discounted price with some fictional “intrinsic utility” price and your comments about the utility of the item are tone deaf and missing the point.

Advertising that you are selling something at a discount is information that your price might be lower than a competitor. Nobody likes getting a discount at store A then seeing the same item for less at store B, and as a result, people don’t care much about discounts in an absolute sense. Only that the information announcement of the discount is advertising price competition with other sellers or substitutes.

When a seller lies about the original price to claim a discount, they are banking on consumers just “believing the lie” that the fake, pre-discount price was a competitive price compared with competitors or substitutes.

People choose to believe it’s a malicious & morally wrong action for the seller to do that, to intentionally play against consumers’ penchant to seek the lowest price among various alternatives by creating a discount from an inflated reference price that is intentionally not competitive with other sellers, and to hope that it fools some consumers who trust the seller instead of doing the legwork to compare prices & learn if the pre-discount price was in line with competitors.

People just choose to believe a seller that chooses to do this is shitty and acting antagonistically to manipulate buyers. They expect sellers to be honest about sources of price competition.

A discount should be with regard to a prevailing market aggregated price, or some close & sincere approximation from sampling the prices at competitors or prices of substitutes. If the discount is in regard to some other way of setting the pre-discount price, then it’s intentionally manipulating people to play on the cognitive flaw that they will nonetheless believe the discount is in regard to some notion of a “fair market value” price level, especially in situations driven by short-term cognition.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#50
post #4

"The report coincides with discussions among lawmakers about regulating technology companies, including through a bill proposed in April by Senators Deb Fischer, Republican of Nebraska, and Mark Warner, Democrat of Virginia, that is meant to limit the use of dark patterns by making some of the techniques illegal and giving the Federal Trade Commission more authority to police the practice. "We are focused in on a pro…

Too bad lawmakers must first experience the problem themselves, before they spring to action. I believe support for healthcare problems and modern-day solutions (such as s embryonic stem cell research) would benefit from showing more passion towards others.

The pointless popups became acceptable again because of the pointless cookie law forcing developers to implement dark ui. By the way did you know browsers use a thing called cookies? Scary i know.
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