Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 113 posts

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#31

Post by lotsofpulp »

detaro wrote: post #16
lotsofpulp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the issue with this sales tactic. There is complete price transparency, and it takes minimal mental capacity to understand that “discounts” are just to fulfill people’s desire to “get” something that others might not be able to. If they want that dopamine hit, then let them have it. If something is worth X at time Y at place Z to the buyer, then it doesn’t matter what the discount is or isn’t.

Clearly it does matter in practice, otherwise discounts wouldn't be worth advertising?

Because people like the feeling of getting a discount. I don't know why, but it satisfies some part of their ego. Discounts don't change the utility of the product or the budget of the buyer or anything, other than the buyer feeling good about themself.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#32

Post by mcv »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #27
mcv wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not complete price transparency. The shop claims the normal price is higher than it actually is, in order to make the discount seem more attractive. That is deception, and therefore not transparency. If only the final price mattered, shops wouldn't be advertising such discounts.

The only purpose of a discount is to make the buyer feel better. If they changed the price without labeling it a discount, the buyer’s utility of the item doesn’t change, but they’re feeling good about it does. I’d rather see education in schools teaching people that discounts are sales tactics that should be ignored rather than laws governing discounts, which would be costlier to implement and enforce.

It makes the buyer feel better because the buyer gets intentionally misinformed about the value of the item. That lies can make someone feel good does not necessarily make the lie okay. (I suppose it might in some circumstances, but I don't think trying to manipulate someone into spending money is one of those circumstances.)

If you think discounts are completely meaningless, then completely banning advertising with discounts is very easy to implement and enforce. Much easier than to properly educate everybody how to arm themselves against deceptive sales practices (though I agree it would be nice if we could do that).

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#33

Post by nicudad »

exergy wrote: post #19
2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #18

> About 30 sites made it easy to sign up for services but particularly hard to cancel, requiring phone calls or other procedures. The Times requires people to talk with a representative online or by phone to cancel subscriptions, but the researchers did not study it or other publishing sites. Nice that the editor was at least allowed to point out that their own employer employs many of these "dark patterns".

Also, I'd actually been considering a Times subscription for a while. That's going to be a hell no from me now.

The hack I use for subscriptions is to pay with a money order, mailed to their location. This makes it impossible for them to autorenew. I started doing this after discovering to my dismay that one subscription used my checking account routing number to auto debit a subscription renewal the following year, at a significantly increased rate, direct from my checking account! I don't see how this isn't larceny or bank robbery.

I also track who is selling my name to marketers by using initials. So my subscriber name instead of Bob Jones is Ned Y. Jones for the NYT sub, Will S. Jones for the WSJ sub, and Roger D. Jones for the Readers Digest. Then when I get mailed an ad for sex toys advertised to Ned Jones, I know the NYT sold my name to them.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#34

Post by Juliate »

digitalengineer wrote: post #5
3xblah wrote: post #4

"The report coincides with discussions among lawmakers about regulating technology companies, including through a bill proposed in April by Senators Deb Fischer, Republican of Nebraska, and Mark Warner, Democrat of Virginia, that is meant to limit the use of dark patterns by making some of the techniques illegal and giving the Federal Trade Commission more authority to police the practice. "We are focused in on a pro…

Too bad lawmakers must first experience the problem themselves, before they spring to action. I believe support for healthcare problems and modern-day solutions (such as s embryonic stem cell research) would benefit from showing more passion towards others.

Well, it happens everywhere this way: * developers need to feel production/operations pain to improve on the software they deliver; * sysops need to feel the constraints and pressures of developers to improve the tools and foundations they provide to developers; * car drivers need to be a back-seat passenger/pedestrian/bicyclist from time to time to understand how to adapt their own driving habits; * etc.

First hand experience trumps everything.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#35

Post by lotsofpulp »

mcv wrote: post #32
lotsofpulp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only purpose of a discount is to make the buyer feel better. If they changed the price without labeling it a discount, the buyer’s utility of the item doesn’t change, but they’re feeling good about it does. I’d rather see education in schools teaching people that discounts are sales tactics that should be ignored rather than laws governing discounts, which would be costlier to implement and enforce.

It makes the buyer feel better because the buyer gets intentionally misinformed about the value of the item. That lies can make someone feel good does not necessarily make the lie okay. (I suppose it might in some circumstances, but I don't think trying to manipulate someone into spending money is one of those circumstances.) If you think discounts are completely meaningless, then completely banning advertising with…

The value of an item is decided at the time an agreement is made between a seller and buyer. There is no one size fits all "value" until then. This can easily be seen in goods such as low volume, high margin goods such as land, vehicles, heavy equipment, intellectual property, and of course, labor.

However, in the developed world, logistics and supply chains have sufficiently developed to allow for minuscule margins on many everyday, low price items that make it uneconomical to negotiate the value of each item to each buyer, so the seller just lists one price for everyone.

In markets in poorer countries, the seller might not do that, and it might be worth their time to negotiate each sale. If they say to one buyer "I'll sell this to you for 50% off today, and charges him the same price as yesterday, and the buyer agrees to buy", who is harmed?

Price discrimination is a natural part of markets, and the only reason it hasn't been happening is because it wasn't worth the retailers time in the US. But with automated systems coming into place, there is no more labor cost and so it's becoming economical to price discriminate again.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#36

Post by TeMPOraL »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #27
mcv wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not complete price transparency. The shop claims the normal price is higher than it actually is, in order to make the discount seem more attractive. That is deception, and therefore not transparency. If only the final price mattered, shops wouldn't be advertising such discounts.

The only purpose of a discount is to make the buyer feel better. If they changed the price without labeling it a discount, the buyer’s utility of the item doesn’t change, but they’re feeling good about it does. I’d rather see education in schools teaching people that discounts are sales tactics that should be ignored rather than laws governing discounts, which would be costlier to implement and enforce.

> I’d rather see education in schools teaching people that discounts are sales tactics that should be ignored

"I'd rather see education in schools teaching people that $instances-of-abuse are members of $family-of-methods-of-abuse that one should protect themselves against".

Funny how for almost everything else, the abuse itself is considered both illegal and morally repugnant, yet abusive sales tactics are legally above board and the profession itself is considered respectable.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#37

Post by mcv »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #35
mcv wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes the buyer feel better because the buyer gets intentionally misinformed about the value of the item. That lies can make someone feel good does not necessarily make the lie okay. (I suppose it might in some circumstances, but I don't think trying to manipulate someone into spending money is one of those circumstances.) If you think discounts are completely meaningless, then completely banning advertising with…

The value of an item is decided at the time an agreement is made between a seller and buyer. There is no one size fits all "value" until then. This can easily be seen in goods such as low volume, high margin goods such as land, vehicles, heavy equipment, intellectual property, and of course, labor. However, in the developed world, logistics and supply chains have sufficiently developed to allow for minuscule margins…

If you want to get technical about it, the value is determined by the market, by the forces of supply and demand. Advertising with a fake discount suggests that the market was willing to pay more for the product than it actually was.

Most products are actually sold with a one size fits all price. People don't haggle over every single item they buy in a shop.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#38

Post by lotsofpulp »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #36
lotsofpulp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only purpose of a discount is to make the buyer feel better. If they changed the price without labeling it a discount, the buyer’s utility of the item doesn’t change, but they’re feeling good about it does. I’d rather see education in schools teaching people that discounts are sales tactics that should be ignored rather than laws governing discounts, which would be costlier to implement and enforce.

> I’d rather see education in schools teaching people that discounts are sales tactics that should be ignored "I'd rather see education in schools teaching people that $instances-of-abuse are members of $family-of-methods-of-abuse that one should protect themselves against". Funny how for almost everything else, the abuse itself is considered both illegal and morally repugnant, yet abusive sales tactics are legally a…

Where is the abuse? A seller has the right to sell at whatever price they want (assuming non emergency situations).

If I'm a seller, I can raise the price 100% at 10AM, and then put a sign that says 70% off. And then the next day, I can reduce the price 100%. The very use of ambiguous wording is a signal that it's a sales tactic.

No one advertises 50% off the median average sale price in the past 30 days, because then it would be abuse. But that's not what any seller advertises. Stating that someone else saved Y dollars is also ambiguous. Saved compared to what?

Booking.com claiming so and so is selling out quickly! What is quickly defined as?

Until there are falsifiable metrics being falsified, I don't see what the abuse is.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#39

Post by lotsofpulp »

mcv wrote: post #37
lotsofpulp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of an item is decided at the time an agreement is made between a seller and buyer. There is no one size fits all "value" until then. This can easily be seen in goods such as low volume, high margin goods such as land, vehicles, heavy equipment, intellectual property, and of course, labor. However, in the developed world, logistics and supply chains have sufficiently developed to allow for minuscule margins…

If you want to get technical about it, the value is determined by the market, by the forces of supply and demand. Advertising with a fake discount suggests that the market was willing to pay more for the product than it actually was. Most products are actually sold with a one size fits all price. People don't haggle over every single item they buy in a shop.

The market does not pay for anything. Individual buyers pay for things, and individual buyers and sellers determine the value of items, at a certain place, at a certain time.

Most everyday items are sold “one size fits all” (but not in large quantities) in developed countries (since the seller's time is valuable enough to offset the extra revenue (or loss) from price discrimination), but there are quite a few places in the world where people still haggle over the price of tomatoes and onions.

But even in the developed world, once you move beyond low margin retail items that are not expiring goods, there is no single sale price. Sometimes price discriminating turns off more customers than the revenue it generates or the labor it costs the seller, so it doesn't make sense for a seller to do it. Sometimes it's worth it, so some sellers might.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#40

Post by C1sc0cat »

vmurthy wrote: post #6

An age old tactic I have encountered: Deep discounts (after raising the prices of course). For e.g. (Harvard research paper - WIP) https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/18-113_16977... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/how-ret... https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/09/24/what...

Uk Supermarkets do that All the time and have special small sized versions of brand products made to make it look cheap.
Post reply on HN