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The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

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71–80 of 178 posts

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#71
post #55

If I'm not mis-remembering, there's an interesting section in Dawkins' The Selfish Gene about cooperative grooming behavior (I think it was in some sort of water fowl) and how the birds deal with cheating behavior (individuals that accept grooming without reciprocating). My takeaway was roughly: Any exchange of value based on trust is exploitable. The simplest cure is excluding the exploiter, but this doesn't scale w…

That's interesting. How equally dangerous would it be if, for example, someone spread misinformation about a party in an attempt to label them as untrustworthy. You could control opinion that way, by labeling anyone who disagrees with you as an outcast.

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#72
It is simply one facet of more pervasive deceit in society.

Back in the day, when you placed a long distance call, an operator would come on to ask you what your number was so the call could be billed to you. A single call might be a dollar or a few dollars, which would be ten to several tens of dollars in today's money.

No one would imagine that such a system would work today.

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#73
I'm a bit surprised this article has zero reference to any interdisciplinary work on trust metrics, and stuff like trust propagation algorithms. I'm even more surprised, with the blockchain having becoming such a buzzword these days, that Bitcoin's proof-of-work approach was not even mentioned, let alone evaluated for effectiveness. And where's the love for Bruce Schneier [0]?

I think the article's approach of referencing historic stragies from government and social infrastructure is a bit useless in this context because how much the problem changes when scarce information becomes abundant light-speed communication. I understand that they are trying to make the point that corporate overlords are bad, but maybe it would serve the purposes of the article better to just focus on the variables that matter, now that there's new capacities for transparency and accountability metrics based on some combination of historic behavior, web of trust node size, and other situational variables based on the medium -- like users that spend a lot of money, or consistently downvote known bad actors. Forcing users to have skin in the game with strict enforcement of transgressions is of course a reasonably effective, if coercive, strategy as well, and you can take the edge off this authoritarian approach if you pair it with some variant of restorative justice.

My approach is perhaps not rigorously useful, but for my personal conceptions of trust in a world of bad actors, I like looking at strategies from Axelrod's iterated prisoner's dilemma[1]. Tit for Tat is famously a good strategy, and there's also a good strategy where you forgive on multiple cooperations but gradually increase the punishment of defectors to n times for their nth defection [2]. Though I should mention that tribalist collusion with other bad actors is unfortunately a very viable approach as well.

[0]: https://www.schneier.com/books/liars_and_outliers/

[1]: https://axelrod.readthedocs.io

[2]: http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/20/4/12.html

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#75
post #72

It is simply one facet of more pervasive deceit in society. Back in the day, when you placed a long distance call, an operator would come on to ask you what your number was so the call could be billed to you. A single call might be a dollar or a few dollars, which would be ten to several tens of dollars in today's money. No one would imagine that such a system would work today.

It is simply one facet of more pervasive deceit in society.

And that's probably rooted in people being fundamentally devalued and taken advantage of.

We are seeing worse income inequality than in The Gilded Age and people act like it's a natural and unavoidable side effect of the existence of tech, the internet, whatever. That's BS. People created these things. If these things exploit people, it's because people designed them to exploit people.

If people want people to be treated better, then people need to stop blaming machines for our social values. Tech merely magnifies those values. It doesn't cause them to exist.

Bill Gates said that automating an efficient system amplifies the efficiency and automating an inefficient system amplifies the inefficiency. I propose that you can similarly amplify whatever underlying social values you have, whether that's something good -- pro education! -- or something bad -- racism and misogyny!

And classism. We are using technology to amplify extractive economic practices, then blaming the robots as if Judgement Day had already arrived and Skynet is now in charge of our lives. (A la the Terminator movies.)

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#76
post #13

At probably a naive glance it seems related to anonymity. Would tying identity to online posts increase this trust? What if you had to insert your National ID Card to comment in some feedback forums? I remember YouTube tried this and failed due to pushback. What's the driver of this clickbait/instant gratification/hot take culture that's developing? Is it just ads?

> What's the driver of this clickbait/instant gratification/hot take culture that's developing? Is it just ads?

It's essentially a race-to-the-bottom situation. Media that don't employ clickbait will lose out to others that are making tons of money catering to instant gratification.

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#77
This looks more like people new to the internet discovering what everyone else already knew: You can't trust strangers on the internet. You never could.

If anything the internet nowadays is a more regulated, safer place than it used to be. The "wild west" internet of old now only endures in certain corners. It's no longer synonymous with the thing itself.

Posting with your full name instead of anonymously or pseudonymously is now the norm for many people. This changed how people interact online, but it also changed their expectations.

A full name however doesn't make a person or their opinions any more real than a pseudonym will. People will lie to you with a fake name just as shamelessly as they would hiding behind a pseudonym.

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#78
Statist nonsense.

> Better rules and technologies that authenticate online transactions; a different ad-tech infrastructure that resists fraud and preserves privacy;

In other words, more rules, more government (including global, to "match" the Internet), mandatory fascist registration of every user for every service, and so on.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I'd rather deal with low trust private companies.

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#79
Can we trust the article that it is the internet that is becoming low trust, or is it reflecting society's trends? Trust has been fading in societies for decades [1] and apparently millenials are the most cynical [2]

https://ourworldindata.org/exports/trust-attitudes-in-the-us...

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/files/2014/...

First, the internet has opened up, and its prominent platforms (which were always predominantly american-culture oriented) are now global and thus reflect low trust cultures as well. Second, Goodhart's law, the internet metrics exist mainly to be gamed, thats why they should change. Reviews worked for a while, when the internet had a very different audience , they no longer work, that's normal wear and tear. Third, it's time platforms start paying specialists for crucial things like product reviews. Crowdsourcing no longer works. (Which explains why wikipedia should maintain a very conservatiove editing policy from now on)

Re: The internet is increasingly a low-trust society

#80

In my mind, focusing on bots is kind of barking up the wrong tree. A lot of fake reviews on Amazon are written by real humans -- my main concern is not figuring out whether a human or a bot wrote a comment, it's figuring out whether or not the comment/review is trustworthy. If we got rid of all of the bots, that wouldn't make Amazon easier for me to use. I feel like scammers have already figured out that humans thems…

Let me point out that fake review posters that benefit from this (otherwise they wouldn't be doing it) are low income people that other commenters claim are most hurt by low trust internet.
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