In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time? • Hacker News Board

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#181

Post by dang » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 5:16 AM UTC

Kluny wrote: post #34

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. This shit is toxic masculinity in action – the part that affects men. Women protest this kind of thing because if they have children they need to go home to, then they are unable to compete on hours with men who can stay late and rely on their wives. But men deserve time with their famili…

"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20236087 and marked it off-topic.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#182

Post by thrwo3123123 » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 5:18 AM UTC

CapricornNoble wrote: post #84

40acres wrote: post #13

Anyone with expertise care to chime in regarding possible causes? I recently finished a WWII documentary and the first few installments of Hardcore History's look into Imperial Japan. The Japanese seem like an "intense" (for lack of a better word) culture, which seems like it can be a pro or a con depending on what that "intensity" is targeted towards.

I always like to say that Japan is basically a feudal militaristic society that just shifted their focus of effort from warfare to business. Japanese introductions and pleasantries are in some ways eerily similar with Marine Corps "customs & courtesies". There was a Youtube documentary I watched where they pointed out that most of the central bankers and other high-ranking economic staff, post-war, were still hardcor…

The documentary you're referring to is 'The Princes of Yen'.

Contrary to all the Western BS about "samurai caste" etc. (it's always some dim-witted "academically proven" stereotype with you folk), the Samurai completely lost their power during the Tokugawa period due to inflation.

Meiji broke this completely, and gave power to an oligarchy consisting of rich merchants/farmers (and some their samurai co-conspirators who helped with the restoring Meiji to power.). In fact, this transition was helped by the British, which might explain why Meiji was so anti-Asia to begin with - there was an incomplete purge of Buddhism and conscious playdown of Chinese culture.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#183

Post by cannonedhamster » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 6:01 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #67

derefr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any way you could just make it physiologically untenable for anyone to stay in your office past 5PM? Right around 6PM at my apartment, the downstairs tenants light up with the most awful, stanky skunk-weed. You literally cannot keep the windows open; and yet, in the middle of summer and no central AC, you can't afford to be there with them closed, either. So, in effect, my neighbour forces me to ensure I'm n…

Some towns in Japan and Taiwan started playing music over city loudspeakers at 6pm that basically means "it's go-home time now."

One of the customers I've worked for in Japan has alerts over the loudspeakers when it's time to go home. The company I work for had people working insane hours (14+ daily) and acted like it was normal. The people were obviously not doing much work staying later, but they wanted to appear to be dedicated. I'd much rather my people work hard when we need it and have time to unwind when we don't. I see it as a failing of management of every day requires an emergency level of effort.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#184

Post by belorn » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 7:59 AM UTC

rosser wrote: post #143

belorn wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It not really about the intent, but rather how the intent is perceived. The reason to not use the N-word is for me identical to toxic masculinity. Most recipients and people who happen to be near won't interpret it in any positive way. Both are unproductive for meaningful discourse and leads to a hostile environment. Since people who use those term is usually well aware of the reaction, it must be assumed that it is…

> Since people who use those term is usually well aware of the reaction, it must be assumed that it is the speakers intention is to cause harm. People who talk about "toxic masculinity", in the academic sense, shouldn't use that term, because other people will have feelings about it? People should adjust their speech to the sensitivities of — not just their, but any — audience? Is that legit the position here?

That is how pejorative terms tend to work. Here in Sweden we had a national discussion about the n-word as recently as early 2000 because a popular traditional nordic pastry since before world war 2 had the word as part of its name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havregrynskugle). As it went "It is just a word for a color, and in context of a traditional pastry, why can't we continue to use its name?".

The answer was obvious and thus the pastry has a new name. Benign usage may take time to go away but if there is no negative intention then it is just easier to switch to other words. Even with traditional pastry people adjusted their speech because other people have feelings about it. Still people wrote quite a lot of political debate articles trying to argue that the whole thing were totally silly, irrational and people should just not get upset over the name of a pastry.

Back then I had similar line of thought as you and thought people should not have to adjust their speech because some unnamed and never defined person may get offended. It was after all just a pastry. It did not feel like something which anyone could legitimate be upset over. Now days I tend to see it more from a perspective of communication and if a word causes generally misunderstanding of the intentions of the speaker then it might just be best to use a other word.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#185

Post by CapricornNoble » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 8:48 AM UTC

thrwo3123123 wrote: post #182

CapricornNoble wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always like to say that Japan is basically a feudal militaristic society that just shifted their focus of effort from warfare to business. Japanese introductions and pleasantries are in some ways eerily similar with Marine Corps "customs & courtesies". There was a Youtube documentary I watched where they pointed out that most of the central bankers and other high-ranking economic staff, post-war, were still hardcor…

The documentary you're referring to is 'The Princes of Yen'. Contrary to all the Western BS about "samurai caste" etc. (it's always some dim-witted "academically proven" stereotype with you folk), the Samurai completely lost their power during the Tokugawa period due to inflation. Meiji broke this completely, and gave power to an oligarchy consisting of rich merchants/farmers (and some their samurai co-conspirators w…

A. Who is "you folk"?

B. Sure, the samurai lost their political power by the Meji period. That doesn't mean their social and cultural influence disappeared overnight, especially since the country spent decades more or less under the thumb of the Imperial Japanese Army....who saw themselves as carrying on the samurai legacy, well within living memory for some Japanese. In the 30's and 40's it permeated the school system, so generations of Japanese grew up with that same military discipline, inherited from the IJA, who inherited it from the samurai.

They sure as hell didn't get rigid selflessness and tolerance for suffering from rich merchants. Plus they still form up for morning PT sessions at corporate jobs! They just have the intensity dialed down to.....1/10. Do you ever see this in any culture that hasn't had a strong military tradition?

https://youtu.be/taHYsmLpWDY

Couldn't find a decent video of Marines doing company-level PT for comparison, but here's Army Basic Training at "Relaxin' Jackson" (everyone pokes fun at graduates of this base for producing the softest Soldiers): https://youtu.be/cIVWU8hyuI0

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#186

Post by throw0101a » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 10:53 AM UTC

lubujackson wrote: post #155

m463 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how do leaders convince people that change can be good? Showing the idea to a broad audience on tv is actually one way to do this. (although there are ways this can backfire)

I am convinced Obama was elected partially because the TV show "24" made having a black president seem viable and normal.

Nichelle Nichols' character of Uhura supposedly inspired a lot of black girls, including one to try to (and succeed) at becoming an astronaut.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae_Jemison

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#187

Post by krapp » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 11:12 AM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #186

lubujackson wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am convinced Obama was elected partially because the TV show "24" made having a black president seem viable and normal.

Nichelle Nichols' character of Uhura supposedly inspired a lot of black girls, including one to try to (and succeed) at becoming an astronaut. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae_Jemison

Nichelle Nichols was actually disappointed in the way her character was portrayed (she did nothing but sit at her station and answer hailing frequencies) and was going to quit the role, but she was convinced to stay by none other than Martin Luther King Jr[0].

It was one of the first, if not the first, portrayal of a black woman on television in a non-stereotypical, non-subservient role, even if it was just secretarial duty on a spaceship.

[0]https://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942461/Star-Treks-Uhura-Re...

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#188

Post by carlmr » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

blondin wrote: post #135

jjuhl wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I work (Denmark); it's more the looks you get if you only take one or two weeks off or if you constantly stay in the office past 7hrs. Over working is not healthy and you are not productive anyway. Work (at most) the 37.5hrs/week (maybe 40 if there's a crunch) you are paid for and take your 6 weeks of yearly vacation that you are entitled to (plus holidays) - is what I'd recommend and what my manager pushes. I…

6 weeks of yearly vacation! you guys have it good lol

It's pretty normal in Europe. Not necessarily by law, but most French, Germans, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish have 6 weeks. In most places the minimum is 4 or 5 weeks, but 6 weeks is the norm.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#189

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #97

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, cultural universals exist, but in the interest of staying on topic, you'll notice a distinct difference between e.g. people having names, and things on zanny's list or cultures that work overtime too much.

I don't know, both bigotry and "[culture] exceptionalism" map pretty well to the cultural universals of "Collective identities" + "Binary cognitive distinctions". Which is, again, why I think zanny was being downvoted: wishing people could get over wanting to work overtime, and wishing human brains would stop categorizing things and then assigning the categories themselves moral worth, are very different kinds of wis…

Sure "otherness" is universal, but in a world where e.g. people of Irish descent used to be considered "other" by "normal" white people, I think there's empirical evidence we can still make progress.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#190

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

esoterica wrote: post #140

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) paid time is taxed 2) unpaid overtime is not taxed 3) untaxed work effectively evades taxes 4) unpaid overtime is tax evasion. which step don't you agree with?

1) Wages are taxed, not work. If there is no money paid there is no tax evasion. 2) Unpaid overtime is not really unpaid unless your employment agreement explicitly states that you are not supposed to work more than 40 hours. If you get paid $100k to work 50 hours, then you are getting paid $100k to work 50 hours, not $100k to work the first 40 and $0 to work the next 10. Your comp is payment all the hours you work,…

At least in the US, not sure about the EU, but unless your profession is explicitly exempt salaried employees are still owed overtime. Unless a job explicitly states the number of hours an employee is to work it's assumed it's 40 hours.

Of course there are exceptions, such as programmers.