In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time? • Hacker News Board

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#151

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 12:53 AM UTC

reroute1 wrote: post #150

fzeroracer wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally the definition of masculinity! The entire definition of masculinity is that it is the set of traits and attributes that a culture defines as being characteristically held by men. So if one of the traits a culture holds is 'men must work themselves to death', then that's a toxic idea. It's an idea associated with what society expects of men, which makes it a masculine trait for that culture. Combined,…

OK I understand the definition, but the idea men should work themselves to death is not one actually held by society at large. Is it only Japanese Male toxicity? Why don't other places have this idea is it just because Japan is not enlightened? I don't think so. In my opinion it's about the workforce being traditionally male, not that it's a masculine idea to overwork yourself. That's why the argument doesn't hold wa…

It's specifically a cultural thing in Japan, yes. Some cultures have other levels of overwork at play but Japan has some unique issues in that regard.

And your second paragraph makes no sense to me. Masculinity isn't about what is 'globally believed to be true', it's about what each individual culture believe constitutes masculinity. If you were to ask people from each culture what does it mean to be masculine or to be a man, you'll likely get wildly different definitions. Because as I keep saying over and over again, masculinity and toxic masculinity is one we discuss as it relates to culture.

You keep defining masculinity as if there is a global constant to masculinity when it can vary immensely from culture to culture. If one culture believes beards are part of being a man and another culture does not, then which is masculine? How do you define that? Is there some global standard?

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#152

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 1:14 AM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #134

dTal wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me that if you're taking completely non-gender-specific toxic behavior like belittling employees for not staying late, and assigning it the label "masculinity", it is you who is engaging in the harmful stereotypes.

But this behavior stems from toxic masculinity. The culture of overwork in Japan has been predominantly a male phenomenon which is why Karoshi tends to occur among men. However as women enter into the workforce they have to adapt these same norms in order to survive which is how toxic masculinity affects them as well. The culture of overwork stems from the masculine stereotype of a man having to be the sole provider…

"But this behavior stems from toxic masculinity. The culture of overwork in Japan has been predominantly a male phenomenon which is why Karoshi tends to occur among men."

It stems from overambitious people who don't care for others, not masculinity. Masculinity points towards males which doesn't help. Call it "overworking culture" to be inclusive. What do you do with a boss who has all attributes of "femininity" but works employees to the bone? Suddenly that's masculinity? Or is that not possible since feminine bosses don't do that?

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#153

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 1:15 AM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #145

belorn wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It not really about the intent, but rather how the intent is perceived. The reason to not use the N-word is for me identical to toxic masculinity. Most recipients and people who happen to be near won't interpret it in any positive way. Both are unproductive for meaningful discourse and leads to a hostile environment. Since people who use those term is usually well aware of the reaction, it must be assumed that it is…

Are we really equating the usage of the N-word, a term which has massive historical racist baggage behind it, to the term 'toxic masculinity' which is a well-known and defined term which does not have any sort of baggage like that behind it?

It connects negative traits to a group of which some have that trait and many don't. It's stereotyping.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#154

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 1:21 AM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #152

fzeroracer wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this behavior stems from toxic masculinity. The culture of overwork in Japan has been predominantly a male phenomenon which is why Karoshi tends to occur among men. However as women enter into the workforce they have to adapt these same norms in order to survive which is how toxic masculinity affects them as well. The culture of overwork stems from the masculine stereotype of a man having to be the sole provider…

"But this behavior stems from toxic masculinity. The culture of overwork in Japan has been predominantly a male phenomenon which is why Karoshi tends to occur among men." It stems from overambitious people who don't care for others, not masculinity. Masculinity points towards males which doesn't help. Call it "overworking culture" to be inclusive. What do you do with a boss who has all attributes of "femininity" but…

I've already explained over and over again that yes, women can perpetuate aspects of toxic masculinity. I'm just going to redirect you to the wikipedia entry on toxic masculinity [1] in hopes that you're willing to engage in the argument rather than endlessly attempt to conflate masculinity with all men which has nothing to do with the discussion on toxic masculinity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#155

Post by lubujackson » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 1:50 AM UTC

m463 wrote: post #53

komali2 wrote: post #7

>In addition to cultural attitudes about the value of hard work, she said, some employers reduce costs by relying on overtime, and employees work the longer hours for the extra pay and to please the boss — promotions often depend more on time spent at a desk than actual productivity. Agggh hits to home. Arrogant American me rolled into a Taiwanese job expecting to skyrocket up the ladder on results alone. Nope, becau…

> how do leaders convince people that change can be good? Showing the idea to a broad audience on tv is actually one way to do this. (although there are ways this can backfire)

I am convinced Obama was elected partially because the TV show "24" made having a black president seem viable and normal.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#156

Post by oarabbus_ » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 1:51 AM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #123

Analemma_ wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because results are tricky are measure. "Butts-in-seats" is much easier for lazy and clueless managers to keep track of, so that's what they do.

Yes. It's hard to measure results, because you usually want to know the counterfactuals, like: "what would the result have been if someone else had been given the assignment". If sales grow 10x under your watch, was that because of your hard work and talent, or because the economy went through an upswing and a few lucrative customers stumbled in the door on their own accord? If your colleagues responsible for the nei…

What about average or slightly-below-average performers who are putting in the coveted 12-hour workdays?

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#157

Post by reroute1 » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 1:54 AM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #151

reroute1 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK I understand the definition, but the idea men should work themselves to death is not one actually held by society at large. Is it only Japanese Male toxicity? Why don't other places have this idea is it just because Japan is not enlightened? I don't think so. In my opinion it's about the workforce being traditionally male, not that it's a masculine idea to overwork yourself. That's why the argument doesn't hold wa…

It's specifically a cultural thing in Japan, yes. Some cultures have other levels of overwork at play but Japan has some unique issues in that regard. And your second paragraph makes no sense to me. Masculinity isn't about what is 'globally believed to be true', it's about what each individual culture believe constitutes masculinity. If you were to ask people from each culture what does it mean to be masculine or to…

If you can't even define masculinity all this discussion seems strange here. You are the one who keeps talking about 'toxic masculinity' like it's a decided phenomenon, but now you are asking if masculinity is not really definable?

I have no connection or investment in the term masculinity or global masculinity or toxic masculinity. But if I were trying to define something like that I would say the most identifiable traits across the set of people who are biologically male, not some nebulous concept of masculinity. You can examine traits across all areas however, like your beard example in that definition because it doesn't matter what one culture considers to be masculine, across all populations men have more facial hair. It's a biological attribution not a cultural one.

Is it true that more often than not across all populations, men and only men are expected to work themselves to death? I say absolutely not in my experience (working in the United States), maybe yours is different. Do you have any sources or evidence to support this idea outside of Japan? If not then you have no argument for toxic masculinity (as defined by that wiki, which I agree with others who have stated that it's a silly term to begin with)

That's why I would say across a global population it isn't a masculine or toxically masculine idea to work yourself to death, from what I can see in most countries men and women work about the same. And in Japan it seems to be becoming if anything a less 'masculine' idea, as evidenced by more females employing the same actions and ideas of the previous workforce so your only real example is drying up, they too are overworking themselves. That is what the original story is about. So why would overworking yourself to death be a male or female quality or socially expected quality? To me it's just a bad quality. Just because in Japan men work themselves to death does not make this a toxically masculine idea for the world at large.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#158

Post by gwilkes » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:01 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #67

derefr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any way you could just make it physiologically untenable for anyone to stay in your office past 5PM? Right around 6PM at my apartment, the downstairs tenants light up with the most awful, stanky skunk-weed. You literally cannot keep the windows open; and yet, in the middle of summer and no central AC, you can't afford to be there with them closed, either. So, in effect, my neighbour forces me to ensure I'm n…

Some towns in Japan and Taiwan started playing music over city loudspeakers at 6pm that basically means "it's go-home time now."

? They do that in my Japanese town of Kumagaya but that is for the kids to go home because it is getting dark. It changes to 4 or 5pm depending on the time of year. Are you sure that music is to remind adults that it is time to go home?

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#159

Post by aonsager » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:09 AM UTC

40acres wrote: post #13

Anyone with expertise care to chime in regarding possible causes? I recently finished a WWII documentary and the first few installments of Hardcore History's look into Imperial Japan. The Japanese seem like an "intense" (for lack of a better word) culture, which seems like it can be a pro or a con depending on what that "intensity" is targeted towards.

Not a historian, but working together as a group and not letting the people around you down are values that are emphasized from childhood. Leaving work before the people around you makes it feel like you are the weakest link.

Also there is a lot of weight placed on seniority, so younger people have pressure to work harder to make up for what they lack in experience. While a little less common now, it used to be understood that you shouldn't leave work before your boss.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#160

Post by fungi » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:10 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #6

stronglikedan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to let your employer feel that pain Unless you're hourly.

Give it enough time and your hourly wages will amortize to cover this - what should now be a 75/hr tier will have remained at 60/hr because everyone gets paid that, working overtime, to get some job done that probably doesn't need overtime to get done. Saw this in Oil and Gas industry among Engineers and Designers (the pipeline/wiring kind, not the UX kind), not sure if it's true for other industries though. Haven't…

And you move into higher tax brackets so take home a smaller fraction.

I'm starting to see it as a loss, the additional time I may put in as overtime is subtracted from time I have for side projects and learning that is far more important to my career (as well as metal / physical health).