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Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

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Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#411
post #368
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US unemployment rates are lower than they have been in more than a decade. There are more jobs than applicants. It could be people prefer working at a desk and a screen in an air conditioned office to, say, schlepping boxes in a warehouse.

> It could be people prefer working at a desk and a screen in an air conditioned office to, say, schlepping boxes in a warehouse. And judging from the article, agencies hiring content moderators are going to do more to paint the work more colourful and being a career-builder, by outright lying about what contractors will actually do day-to-day. Of course that’s going to look more attractive at face-value than being p…

There is no penalty to quitting if the workers are unhappy with the work or feel it was misrepresented to them, and the warehouse jobs are still there waiting.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#412
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>how many 30s videos will randomly share 80% of their frames with a 90s video of an animal being abused? If a powerful actor wants the 30s video removed, and knows it would be removed if it shared 80% of its frames with a 90s video of an animal being abused, then it would not be technically difficult to engineer such a 90s video.

Yeah, but that works once or twice, and then the defense catches on. Sure, it's not a perfect solution, but rather like spam filters, it gets you pretty close. Also, I don't assume that powerful actors are the issue here - they'll likely just call their contacts at a high price law firm and they in turn call FB to remove some video.

>And then the defense catches on

And has to redo everything. It's whack-a-mole.

Doesn't have to be powerful actors really, either. There are many less powerful actors who would love to get selected things removed from YouTube.

This isn't the same as spam mail filters, because you generally don't know what sort of emails other people are sending each other. If you did, you could deliberately try to manipulate filters to flag your competitors' emails as spam.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#413
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it's expected in HN that someone would focus on the software engineer pay, but that largely misses the point. I don't think anyone was arguing that the SWE in this case was overpaid. Perhaps there's a case that, in the context of the moderators who make so much less, it can create a wealth inequality that leads to social instability, but I don't thinks there's enough information for that claim. I would argue…

So where is your outrage over the price of nearly all manual labor, fast food jobs, etc? $15/hr is pretty standard for unskilled work.

As an aside, $15/hr may be common but it's not necessarily "standard". If you look up the Davis-Bacon Act for non-skilled manual labor in the SV area, most rates are around $30/hr + $20/hr fringe (give or take, depending on the position).

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#414
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effectiveness of types of persuasion change with time. Eventually there will be something that moves people if it becomes important enough.

Relying on congress to respond to public issues is fundamentally weaker now, and weakening by the year due to the duopoly in politics: any issue one side takes up is immediately something that - if possible - is criticized and turned into a point of differentiation; and media are growing into that too (online media already are highly polarized). Whatever small forces of reasonable consensus remain aren't enough to ad…

> any issue one side takes up is immediately something that - if possible - is criticized and turned into a point of differentiation

This kind of "bothsame" response willfully overlooks that one party has gone to substantial lengths to offer compromises on bills, appointees, and policy goals, while the other very much hasn't.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#415

> there are two sets of entry-level knowledge workers at Facebook: > engineers ($150k/year, benefits, upward career trajectory) and > content moderators ($30k/year, no benefits, likely going to acquire mental illnesses). If Facebook could get away with paying engineers $30K/year, no benefits, believe me, they would.

I'm sorry but who wouldn't? I would.

I wouldn’t. I pay everyone at least a living wage, full stop. It’s a matter of ethics for me. If the business can’t support it, I change the business.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#416
I think this is also a symptom of the US’ shocking attitude to worker’s rights.

The article says staff were constantly reminded of how easily replaced they were, which is a euphemism for “you’re lucky we gave you a job.”

Facebook and Cognizant are majorly dropping the ball but US government and legislation strongly enables that. As do individual states.

From a European perspective this is a sad article to read about work conditions in “the greatest nation in the world.”

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#417
PSA: I watched a video and I got PTSD.

I used to casually browse a subreddit called watch people die. In 2016 I watched a video on that subreddit that gave me ptsd. At that point in time I had watched probably hundreds of intensely graphic videos, and the total pieces of intensely violent media I had consumed probably numbered in the thousands. I had been into it since 2008. I did it because of morbid curiosity.

At first I scrolled through the comments and noticed something very unusual: very emphatic comments warning people that videos can give you ptsd. Most videos have comments where people talk about how “I couldn’t even finish it” or whatever, so I brushed it off. After watching the video I immediately knew something was wrong. My body felt strange. My mind was in a state of hyper-tension or vigilance. It’s very difficult to describe. I also noticed that my libido would come and go in waves. I would go from not feeling any sexual feelings to being more horny than I’ve ever been in my life. I knew that something deep inside of me had been deeply affected. I went to sleep without much trouble. When I woke up I went into the bathroom to brush my teeth. I felt something coming over me. A sensation of panic. It surprised me because it was out of the blue and I’ve never felt something like that before. I then entered a full blown panic attack, which rocked me so hard that I fled the bathroom and threw myself on the couch. It passed, but I was drowning in anxiety and a sensation of doom. At this point I knew that I may have permanently fucked myself. I was scared. but I still had to go to work. I spent the next few weeks forcing myself through each workday while being suffocated by an overwhelming sensation of doom, anxiety and panic. It was the toughest thing I’ve ever done. But I got through it.

I noticed many things that I later learned are indicative of ptsd: having your eyes lock up, feeling ready to fly off the handle at the slightest provocation, an intense desire to subdue the anxiety with alcohol and drugs. I would walk down the street like an insane person, ready to rage on anyone who even looked at me wrong, and I had no history of anything like this.

I never had bad nightmares or trouble getting to or staying asleep, so I think I had some kind of light beer ptsd. But it was hell on earth. Everything I had heard about veterans losing their jobs and killing themselves all of a sudden made so much sense. Take it from me: ptsd is one of the worst things that can happen to you. And I didn’t even have full blown ptsd.

I got help from a few therapists, and they informed me that if my symptoms persisted more than a month or something, I would technically have ptsd. Other than that, the therapists were basically of no help whatsoever. The symptoms lasted well beyond three months.

As time went on, the symptoms got better. They seem to have stabilized now. If I’m distracted, I feel normal. But if my mind is idle then my thoughts always go back to it and with those thoughts comes the anxiety. Long drives can be uncomfortable. I’m at a state now where I’m in the clear: the symptoms are weak enough that they don’t threaten my ability to work and bathe and etc. and my ability to recognize and cope with the symptoms has increased a lot too. But it still bothers me sometimes and I am keeping my eye out for breakthrough treatments. Sgb and mdma look promising.

A thought can either be in your mind or not. When I’m feeling symptoms, it’s almost like the memories are somewhere in my mind, lurking. But other times they aren’t around. It’s like they have a life of their own. It’s something you don’t have control over.

The best coping mechanism I’ve found so far is meditation sort of. I think that part of ptsd is that your mind is fighting to block the memories and their emotional consequences. So when I feel symptoms I let my mind be open to any and all thoughts or memories. I totally relinquish control of my own thoughts and whatever comes into my mind, I allow it to come and then I watch it pass on. Opening the mind and simply observing the thoughts. This dramatically reduces the severity of my symptoms and often leads my mind to organically become preoccupied with something else.

It’s strange to think that a video can be so dangerous. But they can be. I was a grizzled veteran of gore videos and I thought surely that if they damaged the mind, I would have noticed a long time ago. Some videos, especially high definition ones, can for sure fuck you up. If you have children, don’t allow them access to the internet unfiltered. I saw this video on Reddit for Christ sake.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like my current HQ. I have worked for too many startups with inadequate bathroom setups. It is a big red-flag for me now.

I've used this as a hidden criteria for judging a company during an interview cycle. I always ask to use the bathroom and then see how clean it is, and if it looks like it's been maintained. I visited one private company where I talked to the owner - his office was plastered with pictures of his racing Porsche but the bathroom had rusted metal and peeling paint. Took me about 5 seconds to see where his priorities lay…

The other red-flag was seeing all the framed photos on the CEO’s desk, of his family.

All the pictures were facing away from him, so it seemed like he was advertising his family to anybody sitting in front of his desk.

Maybe he didn’t like looking at them?

Very bizarre.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#419

This was a valuable article to read. Facebook is enormously valuable. They made something like $15B in net income in the last four quarters. Content moderators are a necessary condition for that profit. If kiddie porn, gore and animal cruelty flooded the network, it would cease to be a destination visited by people that advertisers will pay to reach. And yet, there are two sets of entry-level knowledge workers at Fac…

"If kiddie porn, gore and animal cruelty flooded the network, it would cease to be a destination visited by people that advertisers will pay to reach."

I bet this can be done with ML and IA instead human power. Yet, FB uses their human cattle to censor conservative voices.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#420
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but this seems arbitrary. Why is $150K great but $30K isn't? At what level of income for software engineers would you consider employers to be "debasing" the values of social stability? What's so unstable about a world in which software engineers don't make a ton of money?

I guess it's expected in HN that someone would focus on the software engineer pay, but that largely misses the point. I don't think anyone was arguing that the SWE in this case was overpaid. Perhaps there's a case that, in the context of the moderators who make so much less, it can create a wealth inequality that leads to social instability, but I don't thinks there's enough information for that claim. I would argue…

People at 30k are not "dependent" on government subsidies in any socially meaningful sense. They're likely paying more taxes than receiving subsidies - and even if they aren't, there's arbitrariness in that "zero" line in this accounting. E.g. you might call public transit subsidies in cities a subsidy, but... it's a social good, so who exactly is that subsidizing? These kind of workers have next to no leverage, so they're payed the minimum they (as a group) need. If you "subsidize" fixed costs, pay is likely to drop. Many of those subsidies might equally be called investments, or plain old payment. This isn't in this sense equivalent to charity, where people really can't take care of themselves.

I don't think you're wrong or anything - as individuals they're obviously relying on those subsidies, it's just the perspective is weird. These people are clearly adding value to society (of the monetary kind, I don't want to get sidetracked by the moral aspect here) - they're just not in a position to claim it for themselves. Being unable to make long term plans is destabilizing: yep! The fact that the government happens to "pay" you, largely from your own tax bill: why is that destabilizing? That must be due to stigma or something, because there doesn't seem to be any underlying mechanic that makes sense.

Am I missing something?

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