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Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

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Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#231
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we don't have those Ayn Rand-ian free markets for a reason. We have a whole host of workers rights in the U.S. because society realized that leaving everything up to free markets to take advantage of what they can may lead to bad outcomes.

^ for engineers. It obviously works for moderators, and this isn't the first instance it has been reported on, so it appears that there is no outcry from society to be expected any time soon - they know, and they don't care. I'm convinced they would care if it affected those with higher education from wealthy families (i.e. those that become engineers and managers) more, but it doesn't, they are well protected.

Not saying your class argument is wrong, but in the U.S. at least, engineers and moderators are still protected by the same workers rights laws. Maybe the laws need to be updated to reflect modern service jobs, but all workers fall under them.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#232
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine many people wouldn't. It's potentially shortsighted to have that sort of myopic utility maximizing mindset when it causes you to debase other values like social stability. But in a society that advocates the hustle, I gotta get mine, right? /s

Isn't that something that should be resolved at the social or government level? As opposed to Walmart? The market is good at some things, and that which the market does not naturally provide... we morally expect/beg for? Doesn't a situation like this ask for social or government intervention?

It can't be resolved at that level as far as I can see it. Even in planned economies individuals found ways to enrich themselves. My view is that any programs that are seen to imply that a employer is responsible for it's employees is harmful. It should be made clear to everyone that the employer/employee relationship isn't too different from the used car dealer/customer relationship in that everyone is looking to extract maximum value from the exchange. These people aren't your family and will take food out of your children's mouth without hesitation, as such make the moves that are best for you and don't work too hard if hard work goes unrewarded.

This was the critical realization that took me from poverty to the middle class. Smile, pretend to be a bit naïve, extract what you need from the company (résumé fodder, etc) and move on.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#233

This was a valuable article to read. Facebook is enormously valuable. They made something like $15B in net income in the last four quarters. Content moderators are a necessary condition for that profit. If kiddie porn, gore and animal cruelty flooded the network, it would cease to be a destination visited by people that advertisers will pay to reach. And yet, there are two sets of entry-level knowledge workers at Fac…

How about training a classifier to detect and remove potentially bad stuff, then let the users who uploaded it argue that the classifier made a mistake? Only in those cases have human moderators look at it?

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#234
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially screams should be farely easy to detect I guess it depends how reliably it could determine between ordinary screaming (especially with children who scream at just about anything that makes them happy or unhappy), and 'terrible things are happening' screaming. Even most humans would probably struggle to tell the difference just based on a short audio clip of a scream, which is what your algo would have to…

I think we've all sat in our house trying to figure out if the next door neighbour's kids are being murdered or not. Rollercoaster videos would be banned, as well as haunted houses, neither of which are terribly offensive.

I can barely tell the difference between the parrot call that means "Ohshithawkhawkhawkhawk! Take cover!" and the one that means "Hawk! Just kidding; pay attention to me now."

I'm not certain a machine learning system could classify the emotional context of screams across the entire range of animal voices. And what are you going to train it on, exactly? That's a nightmarish corpus to be tagged, right there.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#235
post #159

If they made engineers take turns working in the content moderation you would soon see all sorts of improvements (like the aforementioned ability to recognize duplicate content for starters). They would hate it so much, that would make better tooling. But now they don't have to know about it, just send images to the moderation team over and over like they are robots.

Couldn't it be just done in a more pleasant and efficient way by simply tasking them on moderation assistance tools instead of misplaced retribution? While putting themselves in the moderator's shoes may prove helpful they aren't comparable in skillsets. If they were given a command line interface for instance most mods would be puzzled. "Produced for self" and "produces for content moderators" are differing needs.

Dogfooding isn't really retribution, so much as a reasonably effective way to better understand and capture requirements.

Using the things you produce generally helps motivate ironing out bugs and/or improving the product overall.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#236

It’s strange how quiet the pro-Facebookers become on threads like these. Yesterday, we saw a lot of energy around Libra on both sides of the Facebook spectrum. I’d love to hear an argument from someone defending this company that isn’t “everybody does it.”

Personally, I skimmed the article and failed to see anything particularly bad about it. Typical unskilled office job, with handpicked horror stories. As usual, the author manages to make the employer responsible for employee's life situation. But aside from an impulse of assigning blame on the closest most powerful actor related to situation, I don't see any reason to see Facebook in any kind of negative light for th…

> Typical unskilled office job, with handpicked horror stories.

Are you arguing that these stories aren't important because of the relative infrequency with which they occur? An employee died on the job in a brutally high-stress environment, and Cognizant is denying that his death had anything to do with the work he did. You're right in that cases like his are all too typical nowadays. But the fact that you don't "see anything particularly bad about it" says a lot.

> They didn't create neither the job situation, neither the lack of education

They created the jobs, didn't they? Those jobs exist because Facebook exists. How do they not bear responsibility for the conditions of those jobs? And nobody is criticizing FB for the lack of education or life choices of these workers. What do those have to do with this story at all?

> they aren't even in a any condition to control the labor market.

Disagree. They're in a position to constantly threaten thse workers with termination, that's about as close to total control as one can get in the free world. I'd wager that's far more control than your employer exercises with you. Can you imagine what would happen if Facebook tried that tactic with their SWEs? It's unbelievably disgusting that they treat their low skilled workers this way.

> But aside from an impulse of assigning blame on the closest most powerful actor related to situation, I don't see any reason to see Facebook in any kind of negative light for this.

If the company paying the employees isn't responsible for the working conditions of its facilities, then who is? Do companies not have a responsibility to provide a safe and healthy work environment? On top of that, these employees who make very little chose to break their NDAs, subjecting them to legal exposure, in order to talk about this. They're risking far more than just their jobs by going to the press.

If a company isn't comfortable with employees talking, the onus is on them to create an environment in which workers aren't motivated to go to the press. That very clearly isn't happening here.

> In my experience, such an experiment creates a very unhealthy office politics: people realize that they won't get this kind of compensation anywhere else, and their concern for not getting fired becomes more influential than personal ethics or professionalism.

Logically, this makes no sense to me. In a healthy work environment, strong personal ethics and professionalism should inherently insulate a worker from termination. If a worker feels that they need to behave unethically to stay employed, that says a lot about the culture of the company. Good people in good work environments don't think this way. But I'd love to see some data on this if you have any.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#237
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's kinda how free markets work.

Except we don't have those Ayn Rand-ian free markets for a reason. We have a whole host of workers rights in the U.S. because society realized that leaving everything up to free markets to take advantage of what they can may lead to bad outcomes.

Do you have an example for a free market, where this has happened?

I consider the IT world, that i was part of, the most free experience in my life. No state was involved, contracts were enforced, people just got along. Plain level field. No one even thought of unionizing.

Just now it peaks around the corner again. Rules, bureaucracy, everything that slows you down to make your own thing. Can i do this, can i do that? Other people decide about what i do in my life.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#238

It’s strange how quiet the pro-Facebookers become on threads like these. Yesterday, we saw a lot of energy around Libra on both sides of the Facebook spectrum. I’d love to hear an argument from someone defending this company that isn’t “everybody does it.”

Sometimes “everybody does it” is the appropriate response. I’m absolutely in favor of Facebook giving everyone more money and better working conditions and generally making their lives a pleasure. But when they sometimes fail to do that, in predictable ways that other companies also fail at, “Facebook specifically is evil and we’ve got to destroy it” is just not a reasonable reaction.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#239
post #129

I think the most pertinent question is why don't they quit ? It says a great deal about how broken the United States' job market and social safety net are. If minimum wage were $15, they could find another job that paid their basic living expenses. If health care weren't left up to your employer, they wouldn't be out of luck while looking for a different job. If there were any alternative , they wouldn't stay in this…

It also sounds like they are sold on the empty promise that these jobs will get your foot through the door into the lucrative technology industry.

It seems pretty clear that they stayed after any illusion of that fell away.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#240

It’s strange how quiet the pro-Facebookers become on threads like these. Yesterday, we saw a lot of energy around Libra on both sides of the Facebook spectrum. I’d love to hear an argument from someone defending this company that isn’t “everybody does it.”

Personally, I skimmed the article and failed to see anything particularly bad about it. Typical unskilled office job, with handpicked horror stories. As usual, the author manages to make the employer responsible for employee's life situation. But aside from an impulse of assigning blame on the closest most powerful actor related to situation, I don't see any reason to see Facebook in any kind of negative light for th…

Personally, I find your response to be emblematic of what is wrong with our industry. Completely ignoring the quantity and power of the filth that social media is able to generate and being ok with shoveling this shit to "unskilled" workers and letting them handle the consequences of dealing with that garbage on a daily basis. Just brush it off as a by product of capitalism/the labor market - "They need a service performed, they found people willing to do that service for the money offered".

You ignore the human cost of all of this and brush off peoples experiences as "handpicked horror stories" - you are completely detached from the real world. . Despite your claims, this is 100% a problem of Facebook's making.

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