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Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

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Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#81

Post by EastToWest »

gdy wrote: post #80
EastToWest wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, cool down a bit. I don't think posting here on HN has any effect on the piece or journalist's style. Westerners think any opinions Chinese people have, if not conforming to Western values, are due to either "brainwashed" or "fear repercussions". I have resigned from expressing my opinions long ago in real life because I don't think people around me care much about what I think other than claiming superior or vin…

But I feel so much better now :) Yes, what irked me is not so much her arguments as her smug attitude and the underhanded way of retelling the conversation with a person who trusted her enough to talk with her at length. If you ask me, lifting almost a billion of people out of poverty is amazing. Still, some developments in China make me feel unease. What do people in China think about the social credit system? Also…

My impression for the social credit system is that people seem to like it (mind you, I'm not in China), because it is a powerful tool against bad behaviors and law breakers. I'm not sure if people are aware of or care the invasion of privacy in the implementation of the system. I'm not a big fan of this system in its current form, but someone will need to propose better alternative.

As for the reeducation camps, I haven't been following that closely, haven't had first hand account or direct experience. To form my opinion I will need to travel to Xinjiang to see for myself -- yep, I live up to my own suggestion.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#82

Post by gdy »

krapp wrote: post #77
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never seen a definition of freedom of speech that is restricted specifically to government action. Certainly, internationally recognized definitions like that in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights don't make that distinction. If saying something can essentially wreck your life and turn you into a pariah because you can't even get a job, what does it matter if it's a government or not doing it? When the…

>If saying something can essentially wreck your life and turn you into a pariah because you can't even get a job, what does it matter if it's a government or not doing it? Conversely, it's impossible to have a "marketplace of ideas" if all forms of criticism, regardless of their source or intent, are considered a violation of someone's freedom of speech, and this presents the paradox of only considering active speech…

"all forms of criticism"

Criticism is fine, trying to shut opponent's mouth is not, punishment is not.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#83

Post by sovande »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #16
mido22 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imo, the second book was exceptional and as a standalone, one of the best sci-fi books of the past decade.

Just to set an alternative point of view, I thought the first had some very interesting ideas but was roughly written with weak characterisation. OK, it's a first novel and a translation, so let's see how the series and author progresses... The second on the other hand, had no idea where it was going, no characterisation at all - or terribly cliched attempts, and one of the worst books I've read. I honestly couldn't…

The second book introduce the "The Dark Forest Theory". By that alone it is worth reading. This take on the Fermi Paradox and how it is weaved into the plot is very well done. The second book is also interesting from a SF perspective, describing the treat against earth and the phases and solutions earth goes through. The parallel development of the protagonist Luo Ji is also interesting with a satisfactory and clever conclusion.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#84

Post by fsloth »

unmole wrote: post #29
fsloth wrote: post #22

Science. The only culture that ever begot science was the tradition of greek philosophy and democracy that you could discuss everything, and that everyone was on the same playing ground. Materially, China could have come up with scientific progress for a thousand years, but they didn't, because they lacked the culture for open debate and expression of ideas. No freedom of press, no cars. That's the historical perspec…

> The only culture that ever begot science was the tradition of greek philosophy and democracy that you could discuss everything, and that everyone was on the same playing ground. I'm sorry but this statement is extremely Eurocentric. Are you seriously suggesting that ancient India and China didn't have a tradition of science?

I'm saying that China did not have a culture that promoted science.

Not all of europe did either. Science rose mostly in the protestant north that had learned that differing arguments are not a threat to the status quo.

I'm not saying Chinese were more stupid, or that North-Europeans are smarter than South-Europeans.

I'm saying the culture of open discussion, critical thinking and being challenged for ones claims (i.e. testability) are the cornerstones that are necessary to be in place, and that curtailing freedom of speech curtails the progress of science, as much as focusing on eminence instead of evidence does.

Technological progress and scientific progress are two different things!

China was technologically the most advanced country hands down for a very long time before natural sciences rose. Yet they did not produce a Newton or a Galileo, or, at least the cultural environment was such that their work was forgotten.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#85

Post by NeedMoreTea »

sovande wrote: post #83
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to set an alternative point of view, I thought the first had some very interesting ideas but was roughly written with weak characterisation. OK, it's a first novel and a translation, so let's see how the series and author progresses... The second on the other hand, had no idea where it was going, no characterisation at all - or terribly cliched attempts, and one of the worst books I've read. I honestly couldn't…

The second book introduce the "The Dark Forest Theory". By that alone it is worth reading. This take on the Fermi Paradox and how it is weaved into the plot is very well done. The second book is also interesting from a SF perspective, describing the treat against earth and the phases and solutions earth goes through. The parallel development of the protagonist Luo Ji is also interesting with a satisfactory and clever…

I know what it tries to do. I know he's popular - I expect this comment won't be! :D

Like I said for the first, I thought the writing quite rough, but overall the book and plot carried it along to the end easily enough - I enjoyed it despite its obvious flaws and weak characters. I was looking forward to a second book of an author getting into his stride... I was very disappointed.

The whole of the first half of the book is a clumsy to the point it feels like an entirely different author. Nothing happens and it goes quite literally nowhere. How much is the different translator? I have no idea.

The protagonist has no idea why he's selected, isn't interested, can't be bothered and sort of blunders through the book. For some unknown reason the aliens really need to kill this clueless annoying asshole. Whatever happens, somehow he's still the most important dude on the planet, so he gets to keep blundering on, and keep being an asshole. That is entirely how I felt about the writing too: no idea why he's selected, isn't interested, can't be bothered and sort of blunders through the book where nothing happens.

Somewhere on the entire planet is his perfect woman - so he gives his assistant some cliche teen shopping list - did the author just watch the film Weird Science that day? Except it's Weird Science without the humour. What the hell is all this bullshit for? All so the UN can kidnap her to persuade him to work? ROFL. OK, at this point I want the aliens to win - if this is the best guy humans have, we deserve to be alien lunch, and soon! It's all so ridiculously stupid that it's easily the most memorable part of the book. The writing has descended to school essay standard now. Then the whole of the wallfacing idea mostly doesn't work - it's clumsy and shows the gaping holes constantly, sometimes with a few bits of hand waving to try and carry it.

Then finally, when I'm about to put the book in the compost, there's an all too brief section of decent and compelling story telling. Except I'd mostly lost interest at this point. That quarter or third of the book could have been a decent basis for all of it. Lose well over half a book and the plot wouldn't change!

Then the clumsy utterly unbelievable ending. Yeah right.

Overall? 2/10

Don't care what happens in 3. Unlikely to read another by him.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#86

Post by FeloniousHam »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #85
sovande wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second book introduce the "The Dark Forest Theory". By that alone it is worth reading. This take on the Fermi Paradox and how it is weaved into the plot is very well done. The second book is also interesting from a SF perspective, describing the treat against earth and the phases and solutions earth goes through. The parallel development of the protagonist Luo Ji is also interesting with a satisfactory and clever…

I know what it tries to do. I know he's popular - I expect this comment won't be! :D Like I said for the first, I thought the writing quite rough, but overall the book and plot carried it along to the end easily enough - I enjoyed it despite its obvious flaws and weak characters. I was looking forward to a second book of an author getting into his stride... I was very disappointed. The whole of the first half of the…

I think your criticisms are all valid, but I still loved it.

A lot of sci-fi is plot driven, characters are just vectors for the ideas, and I found the big ideas in The Dark Forest really interesting. I'd never thought to critically about the Sagan/space optimist "people in bear suits" view of alien contact before reading the book (in spite of seeing plenty of space horror movies). And for all its faults, it maintained a tension and mystery that kept me interested to the end.

I also had trouble keeping names and even genders straight, the only character I had a connection to was Da Shi (the hard boiled cop).

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#87

Post by inflatableDodo »

misrab wrote: post #6

"When I brought up the mass internment of Muslim Uighurs—around a million are now in reëducation camps in the northwestern province of Xinjiang—he trotted out the familiar arguments of government-controlled media: “Would you rather that they be hacking away at bodies at train stations and schools in terrorist attacks? If anything, the government is helping their economy and trying to lift them out of poverty.” The an…

There is another option here. The fact that it is pitch perfect to the official line is probably the message. There are two main reasons for someone parroting an official line. Either they are dumb and obedient, or they are being very sarcastic and indicating the opposite. Three Body Problem goes over the problems for Chinese citizens in trying to second guess the current official line when the state is looking and features a protagonist whose main skill is his ability to not give away what he is thinking. I would not be so quick to take his statements at face value for things he can get into serious trouble over.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#88

Post by hungryhobo »

pjc50 wrote: post #67
hungryhobo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important factor that often gets left out when discussing different types of government is the level of development of a country. A centrally powerful government has some perks that makes rapid industrialization possible. Where as a democracy might be good if a country is wealthy and its citizens educated. South Korea and Singapore are the only countries that went from impoverished to developed, and both were unde…

> South Korea and Singapore are the only countries that went from impoverished to developed The entire West went through this process at one time or another, along with some of the post-Communist countries.

Not very peacefully to say the least

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#89

Post by mark_l_watson »

Along with Barack Obama and probably another half billion people, I am a huge fan of sci-fi author Liu Cixin. As a fan of Liu's, it is interesting to get to know him a bit better.

A fun read!

His old sci-fi story The Wondering Earth is available on Netflix, which is pretty good but I prefer reading his books.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#90

Post by cycrutchfield »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #75
cycrutchfield wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech refers to the government not being able to infringe those rights. It says nothing about freedom of consequences for one’s shitty beliefs from prospective employers.

I have never seen a definition of freedom of speech that is restricted specifically to government action. Certainly, internationally recognized definitions like that in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights don't make that distinction. If saying something can essentially wreck your life and turn you into a pariah because you can't even get a job, what does it matter if it's a government or not doing it? When the…

I see. So the government should ensure that everybody has the right to say whatever vile things they want by mandating that employers must hire you even if you happen to be outspoken about your awful beliefs?
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