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Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

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Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#71

Post by krapp »

gumby wrote: post #63

> The trilogy’s success has been credited with establishing sci-fi, once marginalized in China, as a mainstream taste. I wish it were mainstream in the US. Back when people here believed in technical progress, science fiction was popular, if not always main stream. Nowadays there is a category “science fiction” in every video app but the movies are always war movies or westerns, just set in space.

If you're implying that most science fiction hasn't almost always been "war movies or westerns just set in space," I have bad news for you. Science fiction is about the science in the same way westerns are about the horses, which is to say, it isn't.

Also, I don't see signs that people in the US no longer believe in technical progress. There may be forms of technical progress which are not given the priority in American culture that you might prefer, but it seems obvious that progress is advancing in a vast number of fields, and both science fiction and science are more mainstream (albeit, perhaps, in a watered down pop-culture sense) than they ever have been.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#73

Post by gdy »

To me this journalist is disgusting and plainly unprofessional. Yes, Jiayang Fan, I am looking at you.

It's ok to argue with an interviewee, but, gosh, who does it like that?

While "brainwashed" Liu Cixin is "deaf to the argument", the journalist ignores opponent's arguments because of her (commendable, of course) "inflexible sense of morality" and "principles to be upheld regardless of outcomes".

In case the reader is not susceptible to the journalist's line of thought, let's plug a couple of bits like "as if I were minding a small child" and "he sounds almost like a child" in seemingly innocent contexts. Of course, it has nothing to do with how Liu Cixin's words should be perceived in the other contexts.

But what if the reader is still not sure who's won the argument?

The journalist tells what she had read in Liu Cixin's mind: "he sighed, as if exhausted by a debate going on in his head." Of course, he sighs because he doubts what he says, what else that could possibly be?

"I looked at him, studying his face. He blinked" - oh, Jiayang Fan, you are magnificent.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#74

Post by EastToWest »

ephemeralism wrote: post #68
UglycupRawky wrote: post #13

It's a truly fascinating piece, but wow, I didn't expect going in that I'd come out not liking him. On the other hand, I didn't really know anything about Liu Cixin or his work before now, so maybe this is all well-trodden ground for everyone else.

I think you have to look very hard to find anything positive written about China or Chinese people in western establishment media. Especially anything that gets posted on HN.

The reverse, to a lesser extent (only about Western politics), is also true in Chinese media.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#75

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #47
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Honestly, having lived for a while in Singapore myself, I don't think there is much logical argument to be made against that. Another thing to be considered is that freedom in the West gets more and more relative latterly. Say the wrong thing in public (or even in private, if it is made public), and you can easily be fired, even denied future jobs. Is the overall degree of freedom in most Western countries t…

Freedom of speech refers to the government not being able to infringe those rights. It says nothing about freedom of consequences for one’s shitty beliefs from prospective employers.

I have never seen a definition of freedom of speech that is restricted specifically to government action. Certainly, internationally recognized definitions like that in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights don't make that distinction.

If saying something can essentially wreck your life and turn you into a pariah because you can't even get a job, what does it matter if it's a government or not doing it? When the church punished heretics, did it also not count as a violation of freedom of expression because it was not the government doing it?

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#76

Post by jrimbault »

simion314 wrote: post #37
jrimbault wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheng Xin, compared to Luo Ji, has next to zero initiative and is a paper thin character which seems to only be there to metaphorically scream "woman are weak and bad for civilization". The whole section of the book/civilization where everyone is feminized and most of the toxic male behaviors have been repressed is depicted as a "bad thing" leading to weak people and a weak civilization. The first book was decent, ce…

>Cheng Xin, compared to Luo Ji, has next to zero initiative and is a paper thin character which seems to only be there to metaphorically scream "woman are weak and bad for civilization". I interpreted it differently, the fact that some male characters can be less empathetic and could potentially solve some crisis does not mean that all men or all women are X, I am bad with names so I don't remember them, but in the e…

Thomas Wade, her ex-boss, the man of cold hard decisions, a stereotype in its own right.

One of the most out of character decisions event in the books. As with any "out of character action" a character can take, the blame lies in the author. Like in the question "who would win between Superman and Goku ?" the answer is in the author, not the characters. The author forced a narrative to prove the point that Cheng Xin wasn't able to do the hard choices.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#77

Post by krapp »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #75
cycrutchfield wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech refers to the government not being able to infringe those rights. It says nothing about freedom of consequences for one’s shitty beliefs from prospective employers.

I have never seen a definition of freedom of speech that is restricted specifically to government action. Certainly, internationally recognized definitions like that in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights don't make that distinction. If saying something can essentially wreck your life and turn you into a pariah because you can't even get a job, what does it matter if it's a government or not doing it? When the…

>If saying something can essentially wreck your life and turn you into a pariah because you can't even get a job, what does it matter if it's a government or not doing it?

Conversely, it's impossible to have a "marketplace of ideas" if all forms of criticism, regardless of their source or intent, are considered a violation of someone's freedom of speech, and this presents the paradox of only considering active speech to be defensible, but not reactive.

A marketplace of ideas implies that some ideas will be considered not worth buying.

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#78

Post by EastToWest »

gdy wrote: post #73

To me this journalist is disgusting and plainly unprofessional. Yes, Jiayang Fan, I am looking at you. It's ok to argue with an interviewee, but, gosh, who does it like that? While "brainwashed" Liu Cixin is "deaf to the argument", the journalist ignores opponent's arguments because of her (commendable, of course) "inflexible sense of morality" and "principles to be upheld regardless of outcomes". In case the reader…

Hey, cool down a bit. I don't think posting here on HN has any effect on the piece or journalist's style.

Westerners think any opinions Chinese people have, if not conforming to Western values, are due to either "brainwashed" or "fear repercussions".

I have resigned from expressing my opinions long ago in real life because I don't think people around me care much about what I think other than claiming superior or vindicating their own position. So my normal response has been "fly there and ask people what they want, see for yourself".

It has been fascinating to see so many Chinese people who go oversea but end up supporting the current government even more (mind you, not everything the government does, before someone brings this up).

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#79

Post by sfifs »

jcelerier wrote: post #28
anon46121 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not bad. The series reminded me of 1940's-50's sci-fi from the US, for a couple of reasons: A large confidence in the industrial and scientific capacity of their country. Relatively uncritical acceptance that their country is the good guys. No consequential female characters.

> No consequential female characters. ehhh, Ye Wenjie is fairly central in the first book (I'm halfway past the second one)

And the two lead characters in the third one are also women

Re: Liu Cixin’s War of the Worlds

#80

Post by gdy »

EastToWest wrote: post #78
gdy wrote: post #73

To me this journalist is disgusting and plainly unprofessional. Yes, Jiayang Fan, I am looking at you. It's ok to argue with an interviewee, but, gosh, who does it like that? While "brainwashed" Liu Cixin is "deaf to the argument", the journalist ignores opponent's arguments because of her (commendable, of course) "inflexible sense of morality" and "principles to be upheld regardless of outcomes". In case the reader…

Hey, cool down a bit. I don't think posting here on HN has any effect on the piece or journalist's style. Westerners think any opinions Chinese people have, if not conforming to Western values, are due to either "brainwashed" or "fear repercussions". I have resigned from expressing my opinions long ago in real life because I don't think people around me care much about what I think other than claiming superior or vin…

But I feel so much better now :) Yes, what irked me is not so much her arguments as her smug attitude and the underhanded way of retelling the conversation with a person who trusted her enough to talk with her at length.

If you ask me, lifting almost a billion of people out of poverty is amazing. Still, some developments in China make me feel unease.

What do people in China think about the social credit system?

Also while rounding up a million of Muslims in a reeducation camps is better than fucking up two countries in the wake of 9/11, it still doesn't sit well with me.

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