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Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

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Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#761

Post by elcomet »

mrfenk wrote: post #754
app4soft wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you, your money and many services will be inaccessible. And this is creepy thing here.

A lot of people in this thread don't distinct between Libra the currency and Calibra the Facebook wallet. A wallet controlled by Facebook is indeed worrying, and I hope that there will be enough worthy competing alternatives. The Libra network on the other hand looks very solid.

Libra will also be controlled by Facebook. This is a private blockchain. They can block your account no matter what your wallet is.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#762

Post by bonestamp2 »

tjkrusinski wrote: post #729
ei8htyfi5e wrote: post #720

I've lived in China and seen how this plays out. Facebook's new Libra Blockchain will be a centralized bank but way more dangerous. It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you for wrong speak or wrong think, your money and many services will be inaccessible. Further, they have no mandate like the central bank does to increase employment. Their mandate is to make money for cor…

This isn't the case, your wallet is not tied to your Facebook account.

For now. but they said the same thing when they bought WhatsApp -- that it would remain separate from messenger. Now they're merging the two. So, I wouldn't necessarily trust that what Facebook says will stay true forever. It will stay true just long enough for most people to have forgotten that promise.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#763

Post by darkpuma »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #703
andrewla wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that separates this from a bank database is a small thing, but important, and that's that even the bank cannot reduce your balance in secret without your authorization, since transactions are signed and the ledger is public. That's because of the cryptographic primitives used. I think in the end we have to accept that taxonomies are going to have rough edges because the map is not the territory. With Bitcoi…

>the bank cannot reduce your balance in secret without your authorization, since transactions are signed and the ledger is public This capability is pretty pointless when the bank can indefinitely suspend your ability to make transactions. The ability to block transactions is an essential part of compliance with anti-money-laundering and other banking regulations.

In other words: Those who can destroy a thing, control a thing.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#764

Post by msiyer »

Why do we need to expend our energies to debate? Facebook cannot be trusted. Facebook should not be allowed anywhere near our finances. This is a nightmare in the making. Gullible public will start using it in the name of convenience and it might suddenly become ubiquitous.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#765

Post by otakucode »

ficklepickle wrote: post #711
otakucode wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hilarious that they say they want to setup a payment network that omits rent-seeking middlemen.... and proceed to immediately recruit PayPal, Visa, and Mastercard, which are the biggest rent-seeking middlemen that exist. Seriously, those 3 companies alone have more control over the US economy than the US Federal Reserve does. I've just been waiting for the day when the Federal Reserve says 'we need more liquidit…

The corporate dystopia cometh. It won't be long before they are disrupting the inefficient legacy government. You won't even need to vote, they will already know how you feel about the candidates.

I only really have 1 question about this payment system they're setting up. Will transaction fees be flat rate, or will they be percentage-based? I have never understood why society tolerates percent-based charges on payment processing. It does not cost more in any way to transfer a larger number over a wire. If the costs to provide the service don't scale, then the price to use it shouldn't either. I find it hard to believe that Visa and Mastercard would sign on unless they got to maintain their ability to levy taxes on the majority of the economy.... but there's a chance they might. They've been very scared of WePay and AliPay in the East. The idea of that kind of payment system terrifies them in their bones. This cryptocurrency might be seen for them as last-ditch insurance from getting cut out of the picture entirely. Or... they'll just drive things such that they can maintain the same profit level while acting as an oligarchical 'reseller'.

I'm just wondering at what point does the whole 'only the federal reserve is legally permitted to mint currency' thing kick in. With Bitcoin you can make an argument that it's too different... but with this, they're literally setting up a reserve banking system but putting gigacorps in the place of Congress in terms of deciding fiscal policy.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#766

Post by bamboozled »

tjkrusinski wrote: post #729
ei8htyfi5e wrote: post #720

I've lived in China and seen how this plays out. Facebook's new Libra Blockchain will be a centralized bank but way more dangerous. It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you for wrong speak or wrong think, your money and many services will be inaccessible. Further, they have no mandate like the central bank does to increase employment. Their mandate is to make money for cor…

This isn't the case, your wallet is not tied to your Facebook account.

“Sign-in with Facebook” is all it takes to lose your right to privacy though.

It’s pretty clear this is an attempt to take advantage of network effects and dominate the market early.

There is also no guarantee that while FB will be one many validators, I dont see any hard limit on the number of validators required for the network to be operable. So over time a single validators could take over. No one will bother changing coins in this case though as it will be too inconvenient.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#767

Post by fnord77 »

taurath wrote: post #652
generalk wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. The world could use an online independent currency I'm not 100% steeped in cryptocurrency theory, and so I don't understand why this is presented as if it's agreed on by everyone. What problems does the world have that would be solved by an online, independent [of any nation, presumably?] currency? > 2. Adding stability to blockchain currencies and having > that work on a large scale is a good thing Having a blo…

> I'm not 100% steeped in cryptocurrency theory, and so I don't understand why this is presented as if it's agreed on by everyone. What problems does the world have that would be solved by an online, independent [of any nation, presumably?] currency? Visa and Mastercard are taking a 3-4% cut of every single consumer payment made in much of the world. That ends up being a very, very big number. There are many people a…

> Visa and Mastercard are taking a 3-4% cut

have you tried buying anything with bitcoin? currently the transaction fee is almost $2 to have your transaction confirmed within 10 minutes.

Not a lot on big purchases, but that's 20% if you're say trying to buy a $10 lunch with bitcoin.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#768

Post by camgunz »

taurath wrote: post #652
generalk wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. The world could use an online independent currency I'm not 100% steeped in cryptocurrency theory, and so I don't understand why this is presented as if it's agreed on by everyone. What problems does the world have that would be solved by an online, independent [of any nation, presumably?] currency? > 2. Adding stability to blockchain currencies and having > that work on a large scale is a good thing Having a blo…

> I'm not 100% steeped in cryptocurrency theory, and so I don't understand why this is presented as if it's agreed on by everyone. What problems does the world have that would be solved by an online, independent [of any nation, presumably?] currency? Visa and Mastercard are taking a 3-4% cut of every single consumer payment made in much of the world. That ends up being a very, very big number. There are many people a…

> If you live in a country that has extremely tight currency and economic controls but with a corrupt government, and are experiencing hyperinflation (Zimbabwe, Venezuela, others https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate), access to alternative currencies can literally be the difference between life and death for individuals, where the money you make on your salary will be worthless by the time you get your check.

Those same "tight currency and economic controls" apply just as much to cryptocurrencies as they do to Visa gift cards. There's nothing better about "Venezuelans should've used cryptocurrency" versus "Venezuelans should've used dollars".

But beyond that, people have the right to determine their country's monetary policy independent of, say, Bitcoin devs, Facebook executives, or a foreign government (ex: Venezuelans using USD), and it's hard for me to ignore the vague scent of opportunism here. The solution to corrupt governments is not "get rid of all governments", it's "get rid of corrupt governments".

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#769

Post by topmonk »

Nasrudith wrote: post #251
chj wrote: post #174

It's a currency, but I don't see how it is crypto. No mining, centralized control by a few validators. Old wine in new bottles.

Mining isn't essential to cryptocurrency - all that is needed is cryotographic verification. It may be heretical to their ethos but that doesn't disqualify it even if the goals vastly differ.

Except that when the signers are corporations beholden to governments, the freedom to transact with whoever you choose is lost.

This limits its value as a currency. It's like the “7 degrees of seperation” thing. You might not be doing anything with librecoin that the governments of the world don't like, in the network of where the currency could flow would like to but can't it has a cascading effect which severely hampers the size the network can grow to.

For example, if you trade with John who trades with Alice who then tries to trade with Eve, but Eve doesn't want to use your currency becausesshe's doing something Facebook or the U.S. government doesn't like, then Alice won't want to use it because she can't trade with Eve, and then John will be turned off to it for the same reason all the way back to you.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#770

Post by kerng »

andrewla wrote: post #672
jpmattia wrote: post #546

Again: A ledger that is not decentralized is a bank database, not a cryptocurrency. As near as I can tell, Zuckbucks are nothing more than the JPMorganCryptocurrency but with a bigger consortium. The only difference seems to be who is given write privileges to the database.

The thing that separates this from a bank database is a small thing, but important, and that's that even the bank cannot reduce your balance in secret without your authorization, since transactions are signed and the ledger is public. That's because of the cryptographic primitives used. I think in the end we have to accept that taxonomies are going to have rough edges because the map is not the territory. With Bitcoi…

If it's centralized the bank/consortium can do whatever they want. Your transaction might just disappear if the consortium decides that today is a good day to do so.
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