Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#721

Post by shrimp_emoji » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

beezischillin wrote: post #215

I would never ever ever ever trust PayPal, Spotify, Mastercard and the likes to manage my money. It simply sounds like lots and lots and lots of happy little "accidents" and "bugs" waiting to happen for political opponents as they lose their livelihoods. The people who came up with the whole "Manifest Observable Behavior" and random "Suspended for Breach of Community Standards" violations have no place around anyone'…

Manifest observable behavior is just an evidence-based way to determine breach of policy[0]. It's literally the most rational way to go about enforcing policy.

Insofar as suspensions seem "random" because they're done by fast and loose algorithms (which are the only enforcement mechanism that scales), I agree though: that shit sucks, and it affects many sides. Many sides.

When Zuckerberg was in front of Congress, he was repeatedly scolded by Congresspeople for not doing enough to remove bad stuff. He responded by saying that there's too much bad stuff for humans to keep track of, and that Facebook is working really hard on AI capable of handling it. Yay.

0: https://youtu.be/YmcK6GvgVPs?t=172

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#722

Post by feanaro » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

vivekd wrote: post #557

This is an interesting story and I would like to learn more about libra-coin. Unfortunately I think hackernews has a strong anti-facebook bias that is making the opinions here nearly universally one sided. I think we can say three things fairly uncontroversially in favor of this 1. The world could use an online independent currency 2. Adding stability to blockchain currencies and having that work on a large scale is…

I kind of agree with your first two points, but fail to see how Facebook's coin could ever be hoped to achieve this. In what fantasy universe will it be independent of Facebook's control? In what world is the inevitable accompanying tracking of all financial information, cross-referenced with a huge social database by a modern surveillance giant a good thing?

> Unlike government issued currencies, any monopoly or control facebook derives isn't done through force, it's by making a coin better than all the other coins.

It may not be done through sheer force, but when people are making their local decisions, they usually do not have a complete perception of the global ramifications of their actions. The end result might therefore still be something very undesirable for ~everyone.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#723

Post by ljm » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

ilaksh wrote: post #567

jpmattia wrote: post #546

Again: A ledger that is not decentralized is a bank database, not a cryptocurrency. As near as I can tell, Zuckbucks are nothing more than the JPMorganCryptocurrency but with a bigger consortium. The only difference seems to be who is given write privileges to the database.

Correct. Libra coin is backed by Visa. The whole point of cryptocurrency to avoid having to go through middlemen like Visa or even require banks. This is a way for the intermediaries to cash in on the cryptocurrency hype and squash it before cryptocurrency payments become mainstream. They want to insert their own thing that looks like a cryptocurrency but will allow them to continue to profit from and control the exc…

My first impression when I saw this news was that this would be about as 'decentralised' as Tor is. Facebook (and pals) will always maintain significant enough control over the nodes in the network to both maintain consensus in the blockchain, and also to subvert whatever consumer-friendly guarantees they'll claim to make. No different to Tor and US spy agencies controlling enough exit nodes to defeat the purpose of Tor.

Facebook and privacy are fundamentally opposed, so based on known behaviour the currency itself is most likely a hook into more of its users' lives.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#724

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #672

jpmattia wrote: post #546

Again: A ledger that is not decentralized is a bank database, not a cryptocurrency. As near as I can tell, Zuckbucks are nothing more than the JPMorganCryptocurrency but with a bigger consortium. The only difference seems to be who is given write privileges to the database.

The thing that separates this from a bank database is a small thing, but important, and that's that even the bank cannot reduce your balance in secret without your authorization, since transactions are signed and the ledger is public. That's because of the cryptographic primitives used. I think in the end we have to accept that taxonomies are going to have rough edges because the map is not the territory. With Bitcoi…

> even the bank cannot reduce your balance in secret without your authorization

Uh, neither can my Traditional Legacy Bank™ if I ask for regular statements?

I suppose you could argue they could lie to me about the actual amount. Well, then I will just sue them for the money.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#725

Post by SomeOldThrow » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 9:49 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #672

jpmattia wrote: post #546

Again: A ledger that is not decentralized is a bank database, not a cryptocurrency. As near as I can tell, Zuckbucks are nothing more than the JPMorganCryptocurrency but with a bigger consortium. The only difference seems to be who is given write privileges to the database.

The thing that separates this from a bank database is a small thing, but important, and that's that even the bank cannot reduce your balance in secret without your authorization, since transactions are signed and the ledger is public. That's because of the cryptographic primitives used. I think in the end we have to accept that taxonomies are going to have rough edges because the map is not the territory. With Bitcoi…

Ultimately you’re still beholden to private corps to transact at all, and transactions will be tied to your id, so I don’t see this having any benefit over bank-sourced transactions at all.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#726

Post by kodz4 » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 9:50 PM UTC

clearfund wrote: post #718

What this truly mimics is a 'security' analogous to a basket of foreign currency traded as an ETF. Once you give them US $1 it is backed by a POOL of currency from multiple countries (i.e. the other people who have traded their currency for Libra). Once you decide to take your US $1 you will get back a different amount based on the underlying value of the pool based on the fluctuating FX market. May be >= Given they…

Far far away from that point. Maybe when people start buying houses and paying their medical bills with it. Which is not going to happen if the Big Banks have anything to say about it. This is mostly going to be small change transactions for a couple years with lots of other players falling over each other with alternatives. As long as it makes global small change transactions free or dirt cheap should be a good thing.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#727

Post by cwkoss » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #703

andrewla wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that separates this from a bank database is a small thing, but important, and that's that even the bank cannot reduce your balance in secret without your authorization, since transactions are signed and the ledger is public. That's because of the cryptographic primitives used. I think in the end we have to accept that taxonomies are going to have rough edges because the map is not the territory. With Bitcoi…

>the bank cannot reduce your balance in secret without your authorization, since transactions are signed and the ledger is public This capability is pretty pointless when the bank can indefinitely suspend your ability to make transactions. The ability to block transactions is an essential part of compliance with anti-money-laundering and other banking regulations.

See also: the time ripple froze a founder's XRP so they wouldn't sell (and presumably cause a price crash)

https://insidebitcoins.com/news/not-so-decentralized-ripple-...

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#728

Post by dan1234 » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

taurath wrote: post #652

generalk wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. The world could use an online independent currency I'm not 100% steeped in cryptocurrency theory, and so I don't understand why this is presented as if it's agreed on by everyone. What problems does the world have that would be solved by an online, independent [of any nation, presumably?] currency? > 2. Adding stability to blockchain currencies and having > that work on a large scale is a good thing Having a blo…

> I'm not 100% steeped in cryptocurrency theory, and so I don't understand why this is presented as if it's agreed on by everyone. What problems does the world have that would be solved by an online, independent [of any nation, presumably?] currency? Visa and Mastercard are taking a 3-4% cut of every single consumer payment made in much of the world. That ends up being a very, very big number. There are many people a…

> Visa and Mastercard are taking a 3-4% cut of every single consumer payment made in much of the world. That ends up being a very, very big number.

I think you’re overestimating that rate, and by quite a bit. Mastercard’s fees seem to be between 0.2%-1.65%[0] depending on the card and transaction type.

I didn’t bother to look for Visa’s rate, but I’d imagine it’d be similar.

[0]https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/about-mastercard/what-we-...

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#729

Post by tjkrusinski » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

ei8htyfi5e wrote: post #720

I've lived in China and seen how this plays out. Facebook's new Libra Blockchain will be a centralized bank but way more dangerous. It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you for wrong speak or wrong think, your money and many services will be inaccessible. Further, they have no mandate like the central bank does to increase employment. Their mandate is to make money for cor…

This isn't the case, your wallet is not tied to your Facebook account.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#730

Post by app4soft » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

ei8htyfi5e wrote: post #720

I've lived in China and seen how this plays out. Facebook's new Libra Blockchain will be a centralized bank but way more dangerous. It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you for wrong speak or wrong think, your money and many services will be inaccessible. Further, they have no mandate like the central bank does to increase employment. Their mandate is to make money for cor…

> It will allow for a worldwide social credit system. If Facebook decides to remove you, your money and many services will be inaccessible.

And this is creepy thing here.