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Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#231

Post by afarrell »

toyg wrote: post #225
afarrell wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. I’m disagreeing with your belief in the non-controversial nature of your statement. > The US deployed weaponry to... Is an admission that an position is controversial enough that a major world power thought it prudent to enforce that opinion with violent force or the active threat of force. "Kosovo je Srbija" is still an opinion you’ll find expressed in earnest. Would it be c…

> an admission that an position is controversial enough that a major world power thought it prudent to enforce that opinion with violent force But that is the point of Wilson's: the US will (or rather should) back the right to self-determination. That has been the case for a century, and completely doing away with it (or witholding it from its very own citizens) would be a regression. > Secession can also cause viole…

> the US will (or rather should) back the right to self-determination

Indeed. There are powerful institutional reasons why the US does so, including the desires of the American electorate and the structure of US commerce.

> I just don't think one can sustain Wilson in some scenarios and not in others, as a principle. One can calculate pros and cons and allow secession only if certain conditions are met, but we cannot dismiss it with prejudice.

Right, but primary among those conditions must be the power forms of power that could be brought to bear. This is more complex than "If the US 7th fleet were to sail to Hong Kong, it could be sunk by the area-denial power of the People's Liberation Army Navy." because power is more complex than that. But the fact that the PLA could invade Hong Kong is a significant weight on the scale. And so any exercise of power in order to back Hong Kongers right of self-determination is going to have to be more skillfully constructed than anything I could come up with. and it might not be possible. It depends partly on how subtle and skillful the diplomats serving under Trump administration can be.

And the results of that are not going to be consistent with the results of trying to support the self-determiniation of Estonians breaking away from a collapsing USSR. After all, the US didn't succeed at supporting the self-determination of Estonians prior to the 80s.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#232

Post by 886 »

zed88 wrote: post #149

I can recall from a personal experience while working for a UN agency. We had a form with country dropdown selector, and it included Taiwan. We had huge pressure from the local Chinese embassy to remove it. And they also called up some really high up UN officials, all for a dropdown!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#233

Post by seanmcdirmid »

chantelles wrote: post #216
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live in the west? I'm in the us, I just don't see extreme censorship except for racist pandering comments. Don't like the president, or cell phones, or capitalism, all good. Don't like poor people, no one will try to stop you. Only if you make racist, sexist, or gay bashing comments will people try to stop you from speaking. I haven't lived in China but I see the value in people being free to ask questio…

I live in Canada. I have a graduate degree in Equity stuides and have spent my life writing and working to fight racism, sexism and homophobia. It's death by a thousand cuts in the West. I am currently in St. Petersburg Russia on an art project and it is so much more open and nuturing to new ideas than Toronto ever was. On the contrary, not liking capitalism and supporting poor people comes with a very high social co…

Well, unless you happen to be pussy riot, then Putin’s a Russia might not feel so nurturing.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#234

Post by rqs »

hker wrote: post #140
rqs wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Let me answer this question as well, because, well, I'm entitled. It's very very rare to see Chinese people use VPN other than for maybe to play games, most people here is just living, don't even curious about the outside world. Even worse, among those who did got out, some saw those China's…

> HongKong is Not a sovereign country, if people in HongKong eventually failed, then they will face the same thing in the future. Which is the reason why they must try not fail. (If they do, then welcome to West Korea, comrade. May our dear supreme leader bless you!) Hong Kong people are trying to do their best--after all, with no army of its own, 2 million people went to the street to voice out, peacefully--but supp…

> If you can point out concretely how Hong Kong people have been misunderstanding mainland people, please let us know. We want to speak in a way that more people can understand.

I think there is a disinformation campaign against Hong Kong people here at mainland (Actually, this should be "in fact", not "I think").

During the Umbrella Movement, I asked around for people's opinion, many believes HongKongers was seeking for separation rather than democracy. One thing that makes such disinformation campaign easy, I think is because the slogan is not hitting the real goal. It could be more clear if something like「我要真民主 (I want real democracy)」is run a long side with the slogan「我要真普選」. The key is to leave no gap for those disinformation campaigners to operate.

Also, 蝗蟲論 (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%9D%97%E8%9F%B2%E8%AB%96) is very harmful. Many of my family member, even young ones believes "HongKong people thinks we are locusts". I personally view this objectively (In short, "Then why you go there and brought all of their milks?"), but many people don't.

Communication is important, you know. The two side must understand each other better so the common goal might be reached. Don't be fall to the trap and got Divide and Conquered.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#235

Post by hker »

rqs wrote: post #234
hker wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HongKong is Not a sovereign country, if people in HongKong eventually failed, then they will face the same thing in the future. Which is the reason why they must try not fail. (If they do, then welcome to West Korea, comrade. May our dear supreme leader bless you!) Hong Kong people are trying to do their best--after all, with no army of its own, 2 million people went to the street to voice out, peacefully--but supp…

> If you can point out concretely how Hong Kong people have been misunderstanding mainland people, please let us know. We want to speak in a way that more people can understand. I think there is a disinformation campaign against Hong Kong people here at mainland (Actually, this should be "in fact", not "I think"). During the Umbrella Movement, I asked around for people's opinion, many believes HongKongers was seeking…

Thanks for taking the time to write a detailed reply.

> I think there is a disinformation campaign against Hong Kong people here at mainland (Actually, this should be "in fact", not "I think").

I have read some news articles along those lines, so I agree that's likely. And to be honest, this is expected.

> During the Umbrella Movement, I asked around for people's opinion, many believes HongKongers was seeking for separation rather than democracy. One thing that makes such disinformation campaign easy, I think is because the slogan is not hitting the real goal. It could be more clear if something like「我要真民主 (I want real democracy)」is run a long side with the slogan「我要真普選」. The key is to leave no gap for those disinformation campaigners to operate.

That's an interesting suggestion, which I have not thought of. I do think these details, especially the key slogans, need more work because they are important.

I think the deeper cause of these gaps and lack of clarity is that, their target audience was Hong Kong people, so the protestors missed how it would have been perceived by mainland people, and this is a real missed opportunity.

> Also, 蝗蟲論 (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%9D%97%E8%9F%B2%E8%AB%96) is very harmful. Many of my family member, even young ones believes "HongKong people thinks we are locusts". I personally view this objectively (In short, "Then why you go there and brought all of their milks?"), but many people don't.

Thank you very much for your honest opinion. Points taken. And yes, I have heard of those sentiments towards parallel importers who are mainly from Mainland. At the same time, Hong Kong people have been blaming the Hong Kong government for its incompetence in balancing the needs for local residents and handling the mass demand from parallel importers. It would be better if the whole situation is kept civil.

> Communication is important, you know. The two side must understand each other better so the common goal might be reached. Don't be fall to the trap and got Divide and Conquered.

I completely agree, thanks for the words.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#236

Post by zed88 »

886 wrote: post #232
zed88 wrote: post #149

I can recall from a personal experience while working for a UN agency. We had a form with country dropdown selector, and it included Taiwan. We had huge pressure from the local Chinese embassy to remove it. And they also called up some really high up UN officials, all for a dropdown!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations

Interesting.

The Republic of China's most recent request for admission was turned down in 2007,[1] but a number of European governments—led by the United States—protested to the UN's Office of Legal Affairs to force the global body and its secretary-general to stop using the reference “Taiwan is a part of China”.[2]

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#237

Post by richardw »

echaozh wrote: post #167
richardw wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not from the west. You don't have to trust people, but you should be free to make up your own mind. Read what they say and decide. In South Africa we used to have strict control over our news media. Having opened up, I'd rather read and watch what I want, make my mind up, and not get into trouble for voicing my opinion. A free media fights corruption. If you have no corruption then you're a very special country.

Be free to make your own mind. The Chinese are making their own mind, right? So what the fuss? The most funny part when the US or other western countries point fingers at Chinese having insufficient information of misinformation to decide for themselves, is that a significant portion of their population still believes in God, and in US specifically, people believe in Creationism. I don't know, information is just inf…

I don't think it's a monster at all. It's a great country. I do think the leadership isn't giving the full due set of human rights to the citizenry.

The people are more important then the current leadership.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#238

Post by chantelles »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #233
chantelles wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Canada. I have a graduate degree in Equity stuides and have spent my life writing and working to fight racism, sexism and homophobia. It's death by a thousand cuts in the West. I am currently in St. Petersburg Russia on an art project and it is so much more open and nuturing to new ideas than Toronto ever was. On the contrary, not liking capitalism and supporting poor people comes with a very high social co…

Well, unless you happen to be pussy riot, then Putin’s a Russia might not feel so nurturing.

Living somewhere, and contextualizing geopoltics and the difference between a citystate like St. Petersburg and a nation state (Russia), is highly recommended before concluding from afar. Though, it is certainly the mindset of our culture to do so.
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