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Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#121

Post by wangii »

dmix wrote: post #87
xiaochuanSun wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some Chinese students who are studying in US universities support the CN government on this event. Even though they have access to the information, they still choose not to believe it.

I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist who lived and reported from the for many years: https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-eb... It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with 20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can c…

simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP.

No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark, then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm going to be to trust you?

honestly, I think we deserve whatever we have right now, and so do you. how about we just do business and leave the urge to 'help' other people in the world in sci-fi books?

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#122

Post by thoughtfunction »

wangii wrote: post #118
weggooi wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to mainland China recently, both rural and the fast changing cities like Shenzhen. Chairman Mao is universally revered. No one ever questions his track record on economic growth was, even though the evidence is everywhere to see. Similarly, censorship is rarely questioned.

then you failed with your trip. Mao is highly controversial if not hated among all my family and friends. Censorship is laughed at on every level. where did you go?

Is your family inside or outside of china?

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#123

Post by pishpash »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #85
xiaochuanSun wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some Chinese students who are studying in US universities support the CN government on this event. Even though they have access to the information, they still choose not to believe it.

Those students see the government mostly aligned with their interests and have benefits from a lifetime of indoctrination via a higher end public school system. Censorship is more for the less elite classes that don’t have those benefits. Even then, if China decided not to censor anything tomorrow and just went with western-style spin, 80% of the population would basically still agree with the government. That they d…

Like anything, the lack of competition and criticism makes the Chinese political culture susceptible to attacks and its propaganda weak and useless.

Censorship has worked a little too well, and it's become a nasty habit to break out of. That's why the biggest traitor in modern times is Fang Binxing, the father of the GFW, though he probably believed himself to be a patriot.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#124

Post by aiyodev »

p1necone wrote: post #119
aiyodev wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Texas secession movement doesn't claim a right to secede. Texas retains the right to split into five states. They plan to use the threat of adding 8 right-leaning senators to the US senate to convince democrats to let them leave.

Isn't Texas only a red state because of gerrymandering?

No. Gerrymandering is something a political majority does to hurt the minority.

Texas was a reliably blue state until Bill Clinton was elected president in 1992 without winning Texas. Before that it was thought no democrat could win without winning Texas. Democrats stopped spending money in the state and George W. Bush became governor in 1994. Republicans have controlled both houses of congress and every statewide position since the 90s.

There's a chance Trump might change that as he is less popular among republicans in Texas than he is nationwide.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#125

Post by ajxs »

wybiral wrote: post #62
lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

It's usually viewed as a protective measure more than a mechanism of oppression. And it is protective. If you believe that widespread dissidence could lead to the collapse of your government then preventing that is a necessary evil to ensure your own well being. So, yeah, most mainlanders are aware of the censorship but it's not always viewed as inherently bad. And not just out of fear of being targeted or something.…

> If you believe that widespread dissidence could lead to the collapse of your government then preventing that is a necessary evil to ensure your own well being.

Stalin/Pol Pot/Hitler and all of the 20th century's historical tyrants would agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#126

Post by adventured »

p1necone wrote: post #119
aiyodev wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Texas secession movement doesn't claim a right to secede. Texas retains the right to split into five states. They plan to use the threat of adding 8 right-leaning senators to the US senate to convince democrats to let them leave.

Isn't Texas only a red state because of gerrymandering?

No. It's a mixed bag still favoring the Republicans.

2018 Texas governor election:

4.65 million (55.8%) votes for the Republican Abbott, to 3.56 million (42.5%) for Valdez.

2018 Texas Senate race:

4.26 million votes for Cruz vs 4.05 million for O'Rourke. That's with the left pouring enermous support and resources behind O'Rourke. Cruz raised $37 million, O'Rourke raised $80 million.

2014 Texas Senate race:

2.86 million (61.6%) votes for the Republican Cornyn vs 1.58 million (34.4%) votes for Alameel.

Republicans are still winning the popular vote.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#127

Post by artificialLimbs »

wangii wrote: post #121
dmix wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist who lived and reported from the for many years: https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-eb... It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with 20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can c…

simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP. No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark, then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm going to be to trust you? honestly, I think we deserve whatever we…

Helping other people in the world is all we're here to do.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#128

Post by ddeck »

my_username_is_ wrote: post #83
tlear wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are idealists, their parents and grandparents were not subjected to Cultural revolution and rest of the brutality of PRC. They think they can keep the city they love as it is. Realistically their only hope is collapse of PRC. Never say never and who knows they might help it happen. I have quite a few classmates back from university (end of 90s start of 2000s) whose families saw writing on the wall, had enough $$…

I think part of the reason that the number of people protesting has grown over the years is that a lot of the people who would have been protesters left around '97. A new generation has grown up with many basic freedoms and they don't want to give those up... And they don't want to leave HK either. I'm not sure if it's harder to get visas to other countries nowadays, but a lot of people are choosing to stay and fight…

>And they don't want to leave HK either. I'm not sure if it's harder to get visas to other countries nowadays, but a lot of people are choosing to stay and fight for their country and their way of life rather than running away.

That's likely true for many people, but there percentage of people that are so dissatisfied that they want to emigrate is very large - 57% of 18-30 year olds indicated they would emigrate if given the chance in a CUHK survey earlier this year:

"Around two-fifths (38.9%) of respondents indicated they would emigrate to other places if they got the chance...younger people (e.g. aged 18-30: 57.0%) had a higher tendency to emigrate.."

"Top pushing factors for emigration among those inclined to move were “dissatisfaction with SAR government / government performance / Chief Executive / high-ranking government officials” (11.0%), “overcrowded living conditions” (10.5%), “too much political dispute / social cleavage” (10.3%), and “slow economic growth or bad economic prospect” (10.3%)."

https://www.cpr.cuhk.edu.hk/en/press_detail.php?id=2364&t=su...

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#129

Post by richardw »

wangii wrote: post #121
dmix wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist who lived and reported from the for many years: https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-eb... It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with 20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can c…

simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP. No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark, then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm going to be to trust you? honestly, I think we deserve whatever we…

Not from the west. You don't have to trust people, but you should be free to make up your own mind. Read what they say and decide.

In South Africa we used to have strict control over our news media. Having opened up, I'd rather read and watch what I want, make my mind up, and not get into trouble for voicing my opinion.

A free media fights corruption. If you have no corruption then you're a very special country.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#130

Post by philwelch »

xiaochuanSun wrote: post #52
lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

There are some Chinese students who are studying in US universities support the CN government on this event. Even though they have access to the information, they still choose not to believe it.

Well, sure. One of the most interesting questions is whether there really is a universal human desire for liberty and democracy or whether that’s just an arbitrary cultural norm of the West. Different cultures can have different preferences and values; part of the whole reason for controlling the flow of information is to control the flow of those values.
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