The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe • Hacker News Board

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#81

Post by mamon » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #71

cf141q5325 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The question is why are people completing unmarketable (or not sufficiently marketable) degrees? For the pursuit of knowledge. Universities are not job training. You getting a good job with your degree is a bonus not the intend outcome for a university.

That used to be called a "liberal education", which meant an education that was appropriate for free men, as opposed to slaves, who would be trained in a trade. Today, that corresponds to pursuing knowledge if you don't need the money . If you do, pursue something that pays. (Pursue as much knowledge as you can work in around the edges, but the main focus has to be on something that pays.)

Ok, so are you saying that there should be no student loans on humanities degrees? Because that's the logical conclusion of what you're saying here.

Would it make sense for the government to make a list of fields where they do back up student loans (which would probably be mostly STEM fields)?

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#82

Post by brightball » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

war1025 wrote: post #58

ikeyany wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. Also, they're more desperate to stay in the US, so they won't demand too much and won't walk away from poor conditions. That also fixes with the population issue since middle class Americans can't really afford to have kids.

Middle class Americans can absolutely afford to have kids. People in certain metros maybe can't afford it, but living there is often a choice they explicitly make, or at the very least talk themselves into. Sure you make half as much working somewhere else, but the cost of living is also a quarter as much.

Yep. That.

Every time I read something about the cost of having kids I'm looking for some idea of where these people live.

The single largest expense for kids is day care and that's only necessary if you have 2 working parents...and if one of those parents income doesn't more than justify the cost of daycare it's usually a better idea to have a stay at home.

People seriously take for granted the financial value that a stay at home parent brings to a home in overall cost savings. Expenses go up based on lack of time, more so than anything else. It affects your shopping, cooking, home maintenance, yard maintenance, eating out, fuel costs and long term child care costs (after school activities, day care, summer day camps, etc) that you have to worry about when you keep needing to free up time so that you can get to work.

And all of those expenses are higher in densely populate areas where there's more demand for all of the "good" activities.

But it often comes down to a matter of pride to have a stay at home parent.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#83

Post by luisaguimaraes » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

It's such a shame that the state can't support the education system financially, so that 20-year old people wouldn't have to take loans to study. It works in other countries, so why not in the US?

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#84

Post by castlecrasher2 » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

dfilppi wrote: post #72

ineedasername wrote: post #64

I'm not sure the author's suggestion that potential students be diverted to trades/coding bootcampts etc., will solve too much, and instead may simply shift the problem into those trade industries as well. Somewhere in the ballpark of 2,000,000 students earn a bachelors degree each year. Let's say 25% of students should be diverted into trade schools instead. That will mean an additional 500,000 student per year ente…

The problem is the government subsidizes loans.

It's a problem for sure but education costs have been high-inflation for a long time. See here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7866194

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#85

Post by sdfsaf » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

jogjayr wrote: post #55

ikeyany wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. Also, they're more desperate to stay in the US, so they won't demand too much and won't walk away from poor conditions. That also fixes with the population issue since middle class Americans can't really afford to have kids.

> For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire Citation needed, because this is a sweepingly broad statement. To hire an H1B you need to pay the prevailing wage, usually at least $60k, which is more than an entry-level non-STEM college grad is going to be paid outside the Bay Area (it should still be increased to something like $90-95k IMO but that's a different issue). In addition to that, there are thousands of dollars i…

Yeah, in theory. In practice H1B abuse is rife. You can look at HN's previous discussion on this.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#86

Post by dragontamer » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:38 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #42

lotsofpulp wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand your use of the term “fair market value” in quotes, implying that it’s not the actual market value. If the seller and buyer are not under duress while selling and buying, why is the dealer not buying and selling at the market value?

If the dealer is buying at 80% and selling at 110% of some number then surely that means that number is not actually fair market value?

Even the stock-market has a bid-ask spread.

A perfectly efficient market will push the bids higher and the asks lower. Stocks for example only have a spread of a couple of pennies.

As the markets get less and less efficient, you become more reliant on middle-men to perform transactions. In the dark ages, people would pay 1-pound of gold for 1-pound of salt. In the case of modern society: bonds (and other derivatives) are less efficient to trade and therefore have higher bid/ask spreads than stocks.

Go away from financial instruments, and a 30% spread on bid/ask is actually reasonable. Play Magic: The Gathering? Buying/selling used video games? You're going to pay a pretty large spread.

------------

"Fair Market Value" is an estimation of the bid/ask spread. There really are two fair prices: the value the buyer is willing to pay, and the value the seller is willing to sell at. These two numbers are all that matters.

By definition, these two prices are fair. Because if they weren't fair, then the buyer (and seller) would reject the deal and the trade will fail.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#87

Post by bluedino » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #42

lotsofpulp wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand your use of the term “fair market value” in quotes, implying that it’s not the actual market value. If the seller and buyer are not under duress while selling and buying, why is the dealer not buying and selling at the market value?

If the dealer is buying at 80% and selling at 110% of some number then surely that means that number is not actually fair market value?

80% isn't enough margin to pay for the dealership and the repoing and all the other stuff

You're doing fairly well if you can get a car dealer to buy your car for 80% of what they sell it for

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#88

Post by chrisco255 » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #78

chrisco255 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas mileage is better, backup cams are standard (and required), the average age of a vehicle on the road is 11 years (up from 8 years in the 90s), so they are more reliable and last longer, better airbags (side curtains are standard nowadays), better anti-corrosion technology, adaptive cruise control, lane assist, auto parallel parking, partial autopilot, bluetooth standard, etc.

So marginal incremental improvement in drive-train technology and electronic doodads? That's how I read that list you gave me. Cars these days don't age any better than cars from 20yr ago or the more modern cars of the 90s. I guess anti-corrosion has improved but it hasn't improved by that much. You still have plenty of vehicles that repeatedly rust out in some spot because the salt gets flung there and the surface c…

Average age of cars on the road is 11 years vs 8 years in the 90s...which means cars are on average lasting 37.5% longer than 20 years ago. And that might be a lagging indicator.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#89

Post by PaulHoule » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

jogjayr wrote: post #55

ikeyany wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire. Also, they're more desperate to stay in the US, so they won't demand too much and won't walk away from poor conditions. That also fixes with the population issue since middle class Americans can't really afford to have kids.

> For starters, H1Bs are cheaper to hire Citation needed, because this is a sweepingly broad statement. To hire an H1B you need to pay the prevailing wage, usually at least $60k, which is more than an entry-level non-STEM college grad is going to be paid outside the Bay Area (it should still be increased to something like $90-95k IMO but that's a different issue). In addition to that, there are thousands of dollars i…

It is hard to afford to raise kids in the bay area.

It is not so hard to afford to raise kids somewhere else, say Salt Lake City or Syracuse, NY.

This is the "comparative advantage" that Adam Smith told you about. India can export kids to the bay area, but so can other parts of the U.S.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#90

Post by fibers » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

lemcoe9 wrote: post #16

lotsofpulp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With GPS/always on mobile data connections, the lender has a much easier time reclaiming the collateral and recouping their losses by selling or leasing it again.

I can absolutely confirm this. I have done work (not on this particular type of system, however) for many small-to-medium car dealerships, and they will spend roughly $400 to equip many of the vehicles in their inventory with ignition interlocks that can be disabled remotely. Here is their business cycle: 1. Purchase a used car from a customer for 80% of "fair market value." 2. Sell the car on a $0-down, 7-year note…

Is it possible to disable these systems, or is something baked into the car where if you disable it the car won't run? This seems very suspicious unless the auto dealer/contractor is expecting most people to not even bother with the gps system.