Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#161

Post by song » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:15 AM UTC

weggooi wrote: post #102

lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

I've been to mainland China recently, both rural and the fast changing cities like Shenzhen. Chairman Mao is universally revered. No one ever questions his track record on economic growth was, even though the evidence is everywhere to see. Similarly, censorship is rarely questioned.

Chairman Mao is not revered by educated mainlanders.. It's not hard to find people criticizing him and it's not even that much of a controversial opinion that people would be careful about expressing it.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#162

Post by ajit01 » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:17 AM UTC

weggooi wrote: post #102

lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

I've been to mainland China recently, both rural and the fast changing cities like Shenzhen. Chairman Mao is universally revered. No one ever questions his track record on economic growth was, even though the evidence is everywhere to see. Similarly, censorship is rarely questioned.

In my experience I found that people from rural areas and far flung provinces were far more critical of the government than people from metropolitan areas such Beijing , Shanghai etc. Even liberal, by Western standards. Might just be a sampling error but my friends from Guangxi and Yunnan are far more sympathetic to democracy, marriage equality, gay rights etc. compared to friends from Shanghai and Beijing

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#163

Post by jopsen » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:18 AM UTC

wybiral wrote: post #62

lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

It's usually viewed as a protective measure more than a mechanism of oppression. And it is protective. If you believe that widespread dissidence could lead to the collapse of your government then preventing that is a necessary evil to ensure your own well being. So, yeah, most mainlanders are aware of the censorship but it's not always viewed as inherently bad. And not just out of fear of being targeted or something.…

> We allow similar censorship in the US...

Please don't try to justify the censorship in China.

Or even paint it as remotely reasonable, or like something Western countries would do.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#164

Post by song » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:24 AM UTC

Danieru wrote: post #67

nine_k wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2047 is 28 years from today. A number of things may change.uh China during that time; the leadership of CPC very likely will have changed. 28 years ago, in 1991, China looked notably different from what it is today.

Indeed, 28 years ago China was not even a dictatorship! It is foolish to think China in another 28 years is going to be nicer. Despot regimes get worse before they collapse. Sadly even the collapse is not a reprieve.

The thing though is that until recently, one could argue that China was going in the right direction... The liberal faction was much more tolerable to HKers... The current government with Xi Jinping is a relapse to a more despotic regimes...

It's also not true, Chiang Kai-shek's son inherited the power from his father but paved the way to Democracy so sometimes despot regimes actually do progress for the better.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#165

Post by jopsen » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:27 AM UTC

Danieru wrote: post #67

nine_k wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2047 is 28 years from today. A number of things may change.uh China during that time; the leadership of CPC very likely will have changed. 28 years ago, in 1991, China looked notably different from what it is today.

Indeed, 28 years ago China was not even a dictatorship! It is foolish to think China in another 28 years is going to be nicer. Despot regimes get worse before they collapse. Sadly even the collapse is not a reprieve.

Was China better 30 years ago? Didn't we just see the 30 year anniversary of tiananmen square..

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#166

Post by pvg » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:28 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #156

pvg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wilson’s Doctrine clearly applies to the citizens of Texas in 2019 as much as to the citizens of Austria-Hungary a century earlier. How do you figure? I don't think any mainstream view of 'self-determination' and certainly not Wilson's just up and grants national sovereignty for the asking. Texas is plenty autonomous.

“I don’t think so” is not an argument. Texas is a well-defined territory with a well-defined set of cultural characteristics. Its population has as much of a right to self-determination as Catalunya, Scotland, Croatia, Slovakia or Kosovo, should a consensus emerge in the region. This is hardly controversial.

It's hardly controversial that whatever Wilson's ideas were, they did not include Texas becoming an independent country. I also don't think it's controversial that all the intricate thinking, principles and international proclamations on self-determination don't actually boil down to 'any group or region can easily turn themselves into a sovereign country, if they really want to and work hard at it'.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#167

Post by echaozh » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:30 AM UTC

richardw wrote: post #129

wangii wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP. No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark, then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm going to be to trust you? honestly, I think we deserve whatever we…

Not from the west. You don't have to trust people, but you should be free to make up your own mind. Read what they say and decide. In South Africa we used to have strict control over our news media. Having opened up, I'd rather read and watch what I want, make my mind up, and not get into trouble for voicing my opinion. A free media fights corruption. If you have no corruption then you're a very special country.

Be free to make your own mind. The Chinese are making their own mind, right? So what the fuss?

The most funny part when the US or other western countries point fingers at Chinese having insufficient information of misinformation to decide for themselves, is that a significant portion of their population still believes in God, and in US specifically, people believe in Creationism.

I don't know, information is just information and can be manipulated and interpreted in both ways. Is abortion a choice of the mother, or a violation of rights of the child? Are guns tools to fight oppression or ways to kill innocent people? They're both, but each side sees the other side as heretic and intolerable.

Now, don't the Chinese people know there's corrutption in the country? Don't they know there's censorship? Don't they even joke about it? US has problems and people talk about it. China has problems and people talk about. In public. On the Internet. China is not how you think it is, no need to paint it as a monster.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#168

Post by jopsen » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:31 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #27

smnrchrds wrote: post #12

Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is? Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until 2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who does not like people protesting and does n…

30 years is a decently long time relative to China's current political system, it could change quite a bit by then.

30 years ago was tiananmen square...

What forces is at work for the better here?

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#169

Post by simonh » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:35 AM UTC

wangii wrote: post #118

weggooi wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to mainland China recently, both rural and the fast changing cities like Shenzhen. Chairman Mao is universally revered. No one ever questions his track record on economic growth was, even though the evidence is everywhere to see. Similarly, censorship is rarely questioned.

then you failed with your trip. Mao is highly controversial if not hated among all my family and friends. Censorship is laughed at on every level. where did you go?

I think views on Mao vary a lot. Some members of my Chinese family suffered terribly under Mao, others did very well. My father in law's family owned some land, so they were crushed by the Communists as class enemies. My mother in law grew up in a city and went to university. Students back then could travel for free, so she went all over China with her friends as a young woman. She's no fan of Mao, but some Chinese do still revere him.

I saw a news report last year about some Chinese students that got arrested. They had been taught Marxism, solidarity with workers, class struggle, etc at University, then tried to put that into practice. They protested against unsafe working practices for cleaners and cooks, campaigned for workers rights and ended up getting arrested and sent to jail for challenging the very system that educated them to do this in the first place. Apparently it wasn't just an isolated incident and things like that happen from time to time.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#170

Post by inferiorhuman » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 7:42 AM UTC

song wrote: post #160

hker wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HongKong is Not a sovereign country, if people in HongKong eventually failed, then they will face the same thing in the future. Which is the reason why they must try not fail. (If they do, then welcome to West Korea, comrade. May our dear supreme leader bless you!) Hong Kong people are trying to do their best--after all, with no army of its own, 2 million people went to the street to voice out, peacefully--but supp…

Indeed, my read as an expat living in HK is that HKers treat mainland China Government as an enemy, not so much the people. It's even said clearly when you go to the protests, people complain about the Beijing government...

A friend of mine who is from the mainland but spent most of their life in the United States went to HK a few years ago. They told me that traveling on a PRC passport really set off the immigration folks, and that even day to day folks were fairly rude -- to the extent that they attempted to mimic a Taiwanese accent.

I think it's unfortunate, but understandable, that there's a certain amount of contempt for mainlanders beyond "love the people, hate the government" as the problems go beyond the government (e.g. affluent mainlanders stocking up on 'safe' supplies from HK).