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Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#111

Post by mantap »

Caprinicus wrote: post #54
bllguo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is an interesting criticism. I would have characterized the Chinese leadership of having a much more long-term outlook than the vast majority of other countries.

They are long term on many things, but not things that concern national pride. It is unclear what threat a semiautonomous HK actually presents to them, beyond just being a bunch of people near Shenzhen who can say mean things about you. It’s not like a rebellion could start there, they would be perfectly happy being left alone.

The threat of HK is that the mainlanders might start wanting some democracy for themselves.

In a way China made a mistake asking for HK back. While it was British they had a convenient boogeyman to point to, now it is part of China, Beijing has nowhere to hide, and the only option they have is to destroy it. This will be a painful process for both Beijing and HK.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#112

Post by wybiral »

dis-sys wrote: post #96
catpack wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Propaganda? You mean like CNN and Foxnews? Good luck finding true independent and fair media.

Just because they're biased or "unfair" doesn't mean they aren't independent. And there's a big difference because you can find consensus or inconsistencies between a collection of independent sources.

The same rule applies to learning anything from other people. The other person is probably biased in some ways so you can't 100% rely on them for 100% of your perspective. But you can talk to lots of people and gain a more rounded world view.

It's only a problem if you limit yourself to getting all of your information from one source.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#113

Post by AuthorizedCust »

wybiral wrote: post #62
lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

It's usually viewed as a protective measure more than a mechanism of oppression. And it is protective. If you believe that widespread dissidence could lead to the collapse of your government then preventing that is a necessary evil to ensure your own well being. So, yeah, most mainlanders are aware of the censorship but it's not always viewed as inherently bad. And not just out of fear of being targeted or something.…

It's protective of the regime, not of the people.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#114

Post by cltsang »

biggio wrote: post #25

Why can't Hong Kong vote for independence?

1. The legislative council is controlled by the CCP for a number of reasons.

2. Last time the people tried to do organize a vote, China performed the largest DDoS attack at the time, trying to bring down the vote system backend.

3. Also most Hong Kong people don't want independence. Most just want CCP to keep hands off.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#115

Post by mrobot »

mrobot wrote: post #41
yladiz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory yes, but in reality he faces no opposition and so will always be "re-elected".

Don't they have elections? Maybe the people want him there, then.

Is there not some sort of democratic structure that allows people to have a say in their government? If you took a survey of random Chinese people would they say Xi Xinping is some dictator that they don't want there?

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#116

Post by pishpash »

whoevercares wrote: post #110
dmix wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist who lived and reported from the for many years: https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-eb... It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with 20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can c…

As a native Chinese living overseas (well US, the location might matter), I could add that it’s not necessary true oversea Chinese students will wind up pro-democracy, because 1) most were having a utopian view of US and most will be disappointed/delusioned after a few years. 2) most if not all never lived in a multi race society before, so the smallest discrimination can be 10x magnified 3)Anti-China news are often…

Being offended by #3 isn't really unique. The whole anti-Israel vs. anti-Semitic thing is a good example of this difficulty. Same with people being critical of long-standing American institutions -- Americans get offended. The only time people can really make it clear in their mind whom they are criticizing is when they are criticizing a particular leader, e.g. Trump, Xi, Kim Jong Un, etc. Everything else just riles people up for no reason.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#117

Post by [deleted] »

Danieru wrote: post #67
nine_k wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2047 is 28 years from today. A number of things may change.uh China during that time; the leadership of CPC very likely will have changed. 28 years ago, in 1991, China looked notably different from what it is today.

Indeed, 28 years ago China was not even a dictatorship! It is foolish to think China in another 28 years is going to be nicer. Despot regimes get worse before they collapse. Sadly even the collapse is not a reprieve.

[deleted]

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#118

Post by wangii »

weggooi wrote: post #102
lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

I've been to mainland China recently, both rural and the fast changing cities like Shenzhen. Chairman Mao is universally revered. No one ever questions his track record on economic growth was, even though the evidence is everywhere to see. Similarly, censorship is rarely questioned.

then you failed with your trip. Mao is highly controversial if not hated among all my family and friends. Censorship is laughed at on every level. where did you go?

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#119

Post by p1necone »

aiyodev wrote: post #75
rayiner wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It cannot: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Union . Texas in fact voted to secede during the civil war, in a public referendum where secession got 75% of the vote. (Or course, it should be noted that the 30% of the population that was enslaved could not vote.) After Texas was defeated in the civil war, it was governed by a governor appointed by the union president for five years until it was readmitted to th…

The Texas secession movement doesn't claim a right to secede. Texas retains the right to split into five states. They plan to use the threat of adding 8 right-leaning senators to the US senate to convince democrats to let them leave.

Isn't Texas only a red state because of gerrymandering?

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#120

Post by [deleted] »

wybiral wrote: post #62
lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

It's usually viewed as a protective measure more than a mechanism of oppression. And it is protective. If you believe that widespread dissidence could lead to the collapse of your government then preventing that is a necessary evil to ensure your own well being. So, yeah, most mainlanders are aware of the censorship but it's not always viewed as inherently bad. And not just out of fear of being targeted or something.…

[deleted]
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