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An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

city-journal.org

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Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#81

Post by tathougies »

baxtr wrote: post #38
maxxxxx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from Germany I found it interesting how much the US culture depends on ingesting substances to make you feel better. Be it painkillers or “superfood” or other things. That makes the US really vulnerable to all kinds of addictions. As a kid I remember only a few occasions where I took any kind of medicine but today’s kids know a ton about all kinds of drugs and it seems pretty standard to take some.

Hmm, makes me wonder if it is in any way related to the somewhat “lost” cooking culture in the states. My roommate in the States didn’t even know how to cook tea or how to boil an egg. And I am really not kidding. Might be a crazy theory but maybe...

Lost American cooking culture? I think you'll have to back that one up

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#82

Post by leetcrew »

oh_sigh wrote: post #36
hackermailman wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These street drug networks are pretty sophisticated and hard to crack down on. For example a typical street operation like openly selling baggies outside of a legalized injection clinic or to a homeless camp is often done by the addicts themselves, who will always only be holding just enough so they don't see much jail time if they are arrested. Security of this street dealing is overseen by very obvious looking pris…

If the low level gangs knew that cops would remain present on those corners, would the shooting wars erupt when there was a power vacuum? Looking at these gangs as rational economic players, it makes sense to fight over a limited, highly valuable resource(the street corner). It doesn't make sense to fight over it if it's value is extremely reduced(because cops will be stationed there all the time).

to some extent, it's a prisoner's dilemma. if all the different gangs can agree not to kill each other for territory, everyone involved is better off on average. but in the short term there's still a huge incentive to be the first gang to defect and take a bunch of territory. from the perspective of an individual actor, it can be rational to do something that decreases the size of the overall pie if you can take a large enough fraction for yourself.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#83

Post by mulmen »

iamnothere wrote: post #76
mulmen wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are absolutely feeling the pain of a lack of social safety nets for all kinds of problems. Unpopular opinion: I’m ok putting non-violent people in jail when they break the law. We need reform in the jails and prisons, not more lenient sentencing. And because I’m sure it needs to be clarified, not every law breaker needs to go to jail immediately.

Why is jail necessarily the best answer? Fines and restitution, community service, court mandated counseling, "night jail" (must report to jail after work) and other tools would work better for preventing and correcting the harms of many (if not most?) types of nonviolent crime. Traditional jailing creates all kinds of assorted harms that actively prevent rehabilitation and which probably don't provide much deterrenc…

I agree with you so I should clarify what I mean by “jail”. The reform aspect is absolutely crucial and I am not advocating for simply locking people up as we do today. When I say “jail” I should probably say something like “adequate social safety nets supported by state mandated rehabilitation” but the marketing needs work.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#84

Post by olliej »

The article fails to acknowledge that drug abuse can be caused by homelessness (which also makes sense when you think about it). In fact all it says is that homeless people use drugs, and then goes on to say that therefore drugs cause homelessness.

It also fails to acknowledge (in CA at least) that the 80s republican plan to save money by closing mental health facilities put a large number of people on the streets without any means to afford necessary drugs, and so no ability to work (assuming they had somewhere to live). This dramatically increased the cost to the state as now people with mental health issues get put in prisons. Keeping someone in a prison costs much more than in a proper treatment facility, and also fails to provide any rehabilitate support, and now they have a criminal record so even if they could get treatment in prison they can’t get a job when they get out, so end up homeless, and then back in prison.

It also ignores fairly basic concepts: there are fewer rooms available to rent in SF than there are homeless people, so even if the city just paid the rent for them (which is cheaper in the long term), there isn’t anywhere for them to live.

Cool beans.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#85

Post by kerkeslager »

mulmen wrote: post #64
scarface74 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you tightly regulate the “pharma space” and those drugs are harder to get, the same addicts will just find a substitute drug. The “War on Drugs” has been an abysmal failure. If you lock up the users, you’re just spending more money housing non violent offenders. If you lock up the sellers, someone else will take their place. Homeless drug addicts don’t fear jail, how could it be any worse than life on the stre…

We are absolutely feeling the pain of a lack of social safety nets for all kinds of problems. Unpopular opinion: I’m ok putting non-violent people in jail when they break the law. We need reform in the jails and prisons, not more lenient sentencing. And because I’m sure it needs to be clarified, not every law breaker needs to go to jail immediately.

What kind of reform are you proposing?

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#86

Post by mulmen »

kerkeslager wrote: post #85
mulmen wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are absolutely feeling the pain of a lack of social safety nets for all kinds of problems. Unpopular opinion: I’m ok putting non-violent people in jail when they break the law. We need reform in the jails and prisons, not more lenient sentencing. And because I’m sure it needs to be clarified, not every law breaker needs to go to jail immediately.

What kind of reform are you proposing?

Fundamentally we should focus on rehabilitation instead of punishment. If the non-violent offense is theft in support of a drug habit then rehabilitation should be made available. It should not be optional.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#87

Post by kerkeslager »

mulmen wrote: post #62
quakingaspen wrote: post #20

While this article alleges that addiction is the root cause of homelessness, it makes no effort to prove that claim. That there is correlation between the two is clear, but claiming that addiction is the root cause of homelessness of the west coast is just fear-mongering. Determining root cause is important to finding the right solution. Further cracking down on homeless people will just transfer them from the street…

I was a lot more compassionate 5 years ago when I thought Seattle could solve its homelessness problem. Now that it’s clear we can’t I just feel bad for everyone involved. There are entire parts of my city (parks, downtown) I can’t even visit because of the homeless. Maybe someone who falls on hard times doesn’t deserve jail time but if you steal or break any other laws you need to face the music, just like everyone…

> There are entire parts of my city (parks, downtown) I can’t even visit because of the homeless. Maybe someone who falls on hard times doesn’t deserve jail time but if you steal or break any other laws you need to face the music, just like everyone else.

> The homeless deserve dignity and respect but so do the rest of us, I feel like that has been forgotten.

How mulmen isn't getting dignity and respect: he's afraid to visit parts of his city (parks, downtown).

How homeless people aren't getting dignity and respect: sleeping outside in the very places mulmen is afraid to visit, having to beg for food.

To be honest, even if anyone had forgotten about how inconvenient homelessness is for those who live in homes and don't have to go near areas with homeless, I'd be pretty okay with us forgetting that.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#88

Post by mulmen »

kerkeslager wrote: post #87
mulmen wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a lot more compassionate 5 years ago when I thought Seattle could solve its homelessness problem. Now that it’s clear we can’t I just feel bad for everyone involved. There are entire parts of my city (parks, downtown) I can’t even visit because of the homeless. Maybe someone who falls on hard times doesn’t deserve jail time but if you steal or break any other laws you need to face the music, just like everyone…

> There are entire parts of my city (parks, downtown) I can’t even visit because of the homeless. Maybe someone who falls on hard times doesn’t deserve jail time but if you steal or break any other laws you need to face the music, just like everyone else. > The homeless deserve dignity and respect but so do the rest of us, I feel like that has been forgotten. How mulmen isn't getting dignity and respect: he's afraid…

The “areas mulmen is afraid to go” include my daily commute and bus stops. They are very much places I visit frequently. Even if they were not places I frequently visit it would still not be acceptable.

The current state of homelessness in Seattle sucks for everyone. Regular citizens of the city are rightfully getting fed up by the lack of progress.

That’s important because the only way we can solve it is with the support of the public. Attacking me isn’t doing anything to help.

We have law-abiding citizens getting stabbed walking down the street. Trash, human waste and used needles litter parks and public spaces. It’s not a safe place to be and that is not acceptable.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#89

Post by kerkeslager »

mulmen wrote: post #86
kerkeslager wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of reform are you proposing?

Fundamentally we should focus on rehabilitation instead of punishment. If the non-violent offense is theft in support of a drug habit then rehabilitation should be made available. It should not be optional.

What does rehabilitation entail for you?

If we're looking at addiction as a mental illness to be rehabilitated from, I would posit that forcibly housing them with a bunch of other mentally ill people, some of whom may be violent, would be traumatic enough to most people that it would more than negate the benefits of many rehabilitative interventions.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#90

Post by mulmen »

kerkeslager wrote: post #89
mulmen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally we should focus on rehabilitation instead of punishment. If the non-violent offense is theft in support of a drug habit then rehabilitation should be made available. It should not be optional.

What does rehabilitation entail for you? If we're looking at addiction as a mental illness to be rehabilitated from, I would posit that forcibly housing them with a bunch of other mentally ill people, some of whom may be violent, would be traumatic enough to most people that it would more than negate the benefits of many rehabilitative interventions.

Rather than focus on what might not work I would rather put energy into finding what does. Things that do not work: what we do today. Things that might work: some form of rehabilitation.

If locking up drug addicts in a room and telling them to sort it out doesn’t work maybe we should try a new form of rehab instead of just saying “well I guess rehab doesn’t work”.

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