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An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

city-journal.org

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Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#61

Post by [deleted] »

jseliger wrote: post #44
hackermailman wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These street drug networks are pretty sophisticated and hard to crack down on. For example a typical street operation like openly selling baggies outside of a legalized injection clinic or to a homeless camp is often done by the addicts themselves, who will always only be holding just enough so they don't see much jail time if they are arrested. Security of this street dealing is overseen by very obvious looking pris…

This is quite close to the plot of the The Wire . It's amazing that, 20 years later, we're still having the exact same discussions. Although I suppose that David Simon knew that, when he was working on The Wire , he was in some ways reproducing the same structures that have been in place since the "War on Drugs" and the '70s.

[deleted]

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#62

Post by mulmen »

quakingaspen wrote: post #20

While this article alleges that addiction is the root cause of homelessness, it makes no effort to prove that claim. That there is correlation between the two is clear, but claiming that addiction is the root cause of homelessness of the west coast is just fear-mongering. Determining root cause is important to finding the right solution. Further cracking down on homeless people will just transfer them from the street…

I was a lot more compassionate 5 years ago when I thought Seattle could solve its homelessness problem. Now that it’s clear we can’t I just feel bad for everyone involved.

There are entire parts of my city (parks, downtown) I can’t even visit because of the homeless. Maybe someone who falls on hard times doesn’t deserve jail time but if you steal or break any other laws you need to face the music, just like everyone else.

The homeless deserve dignity and respect but so do the rest of us, I feel like that has been forgotten.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#63

Post by arkades »

ajhurliman wrote: post #56
quakingaspen wrote: post #20

While this article alleges that addiction is the root cause of homelessness, it makes no effort to prove that claim. That there is correlation between the two is clear, but claiming that addiction is the root cause of homelessness of the west coast is just fear-mongering. Determining root cause is important to finding the right solution. Further cracking down on homeless people will just transfer them from the street…

There are studies that back up this claim, though[0]. From the paper: “Labor force participation has fallen more in areas where relatively more opioid pain medication is prescribed” [0] https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/1_krueg...

Very possibly reversing causality. That Brookings paper itself states that the economic downturn predates the 'opioid epidemic'. It's based on data that adds up to little more than, well, what you quoted - with little effort to prove which direction the causal link runs, although the paper seems to take for granted it's the drugs causing the labor participation reduction.

The author, describing his assumptions in building his model (pg 36), states "This is a big leap," - language I've never actually seen in an academic paper before. It's usually the sort of thing that peer reviewers say behind their hands before throwing barbs at you.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#64

Post by mulmen »

scarface74 wrote: post #24
seltzered_ wrote: post #12

I think the question to ask is what created the opioid problem in the first place - I tend to think it's lack of regulation in the pharma space. I've criticised the author (Chris Rufo, associated with the conservative and intelligent design group Discovery Institute) in his earlier pieces (see https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/acwqng/podcast_s... ) where he used seemingly incomplete estimates on the funding…

And if you tightly regulate the “pharma space” and those drugs are harder to get, the same addicts will just find a substitute drug. The “War on Drugs” has been an abysmal failure. If you lock up the users, you’re just spending more money housing non violent offenders. If you lock up the sellers, someone else will take their place. Homeless drug addicts don’t fear jail, how could it be any worse than life on the stre…

We are absolutely feeling the pain of a lack of social safety nets for all kinds of problems.

Unpopular opinion: I’m ok putting non-violent people in jail when they break the law. We need reform in the jails and prisons, not more lenient sentencing.

And because I’m sure it needs to be clarified, not every law breaker needs to go to jail immediately.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#65

Post by bilbo0s »

maxxxxx wrote: post #31
Animats wrote: post #27

A friend who lives in the SF Mission likes the idea of shipping the druggies off to a drug camp in the middle of nowhere. They get all the drugs they want, until they die.

Same for unemployed people and depressed people who have fallen on hard times?

Well, given how people who come up with ideas like that think, yeah, they probably would like all the poors to be removed and shot or something. It's just how those people think.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#66

Post by pbhjpbhj »

briandear wrote: post #40
hackermailman wrote: post #15

From my anecdotal experience living in an area filled with fentanyl shooting drug addicts I've noticed they generally are substance abusers with other drugs, such as meth or heavy drinking, ilegally procured prescription pills, cocaine etc., they have groups of fellow substance abusers they meet with daily to combine resources and when the money runs out switch to other drugs that are cheaper to buy like bags of hero…

I could up until last year, by Codeine over the counter in France and there wasn’t a widespread opioid crisis. Some hysterical parents lobbied to get codeine prescription only in France and he hasn’t done anything for the levels of addiction— it only make it more obnoxious to have to go to the doctor to get a prescription for a €2.50 package of pills — pills that were amazing for coughs and headaches. I probably used…

I don't really get the justification for not allowing adults to buy any (legal) drugs they wish. If you have free public healthcare, I can sort of see that there's a right for the state to have control over drugs because the state then has to handle any harm caused by it.

But what's the reasoning for not completely liberalising drugs? Is there a reasoning, or is it just a means to keep control over a population one feels they own?

I'm not necessarily for complete liberalisation, just curious about how/why the system is as it is.

In the UK the only apparent motivation for the original legislation in restricting drug sales, the Pharmacy Act 1868, appears to be that particular groups wanted to be the sole parties legally allowed to distribute those substances. Deaths fell, according to Wikipedia's mixed up statistics. But the motivation appears to have been unrelated to public safety. Meanwhile, of course, anyone with sufficient funds could simply buy the substances they wished. Wartime motivation (WWI) was to keep soldiers battle-ready. Then it seemed to become an international issue.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#67

Post by clairity »

maxxxxx wrote: post #29
hackermailman wrote: post #15

From my anecdotal experience living in an area filled with fentanyl shooting drug addicts I've noticed they generally are substance abusers with other drugs, such as meth or heavy drinking, ilegally procured prescription pills, cocaine etc., they have groups of fellow substance abusers they meet with daily to combine resources and when the money runs out switch to other drugs that are cheaper to buy like bags of hero…

Coming from Germany I found it interesting how much the US culture depends on ingesting substances to make you feel better. Be it painkillers or “superfood” or other things. That makes the US really vulnerable to all kinds of addictions. As a kid I remember only a few occasions where I took any kind of medicine but today’s kids know a ton about all kinds of drugs and it seems pretty standard to take some.

as an american, i view such quick-fixes as a form of american exceptionalism and magical thinking. my mother had a tendency to reach for medicines whenever i got sick growing up, and i just found that they didn't usually help much (other than the occasional antibiotic for a bacterial infection). as an adult, i tend to avoid medications, especially for pain.

i don't know about superfoods making you feel better. i generally eat what i crave, which tends to be "real" food (fresh meats, dairy, and fruits/veges) more than processed food, although i do still love sweet/salty/fatty treats (but not breads particularly). i don't think we know enough about food and our bodies yet to optimize more than that.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#68

Post by hackermailman »

oh_sigh wrote: post #36
hackermailman wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These street drug networks are pretty sophisticated and hard to crack down on. For example a typical street operation like openly selling baggies outside of a legalized injection clinic or to a homeless camp is often done by the addicts themselves, who will always only be holding just enough so they don't see much jail time if they are arrested. Security of this street dealing is overseen by very obvious looking pris…

If the low level gangs knew that cops would remain present on those corners, would the shooting wars erupt when there was a power vacuum? Looking at these gangs as rational economic players, it makes sense to fight over a limited, highly valuable resource(the street corner). It doesn't make sense to fight over it if it's value is extremely reduced(because cops will be stationed there all the time).

The gangs attack each other's higher level members outside the area, meaning broad daylight shootings at some high end restaurant or Starbucks parking lot. There is already a heavy police presence outside the numerous injection sites here all day long it doesn't seem to matter at all in restricting the organized sale of fentanyl. I think you would need to quadruple the budget of the police department to try any real sustained crackdown, and you would have to build new prisons as the current ones are already to capacity.

Nobody will vote for the city mayor who wants to significantly jack up property taxes to pay for a new drug crackdown when every voter knows it's largely a tried and failed, unsustainable policy. It would be vastly cheaper to just pour money into gang recruitment discouragement, and hand out free heroin undercutting the gang's product which is what they've started to do here.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#69

Post by strken »

scarface74 wrote: post #24
seltzered_ wrote: post #12

I think the question to ask is what created the opioid problem in the first place - I tend to think it's lack of regulation in the pharma space. I've criticised the author (Chris Rufo, associated with the conservative and intelligent design group Discovery Institute) in his earlier pieces (see https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/acwqng/podcast_s... ) where he used seemingly incomplete estimates on the funding…

And if you tightly regulate the “pharma space” and those drugs are harder to get, the same addicts will just find a substitute drug. The “War on Drugs” has been an abysmal failure. If you lock up the users, you’re just spending more money housing non violent offenders. If you lock up the sellers, someone else will take their place. Homeless drug addicts don’t fear jail, how could it be any worse than life on the stre…

Addicts aren't born as fully formed heroin junkies, they all have a first time when they used an opiate or opioid. If you're living on the street and stealing handbags to buy heroin, you got there through a series of crises, each one an intervention point. Not being able to steal your dad's oxys from the medicine cabinet, or not being put on opioid painkillers for three months straight, are two of those intervention points.

Re: An Addiction Crisis Disguised as a Housing Crisis

#70

Post by sokoloff »

pessimizer wrote: post #49
scarface74 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you tightly regulate the “pharma space” and those drugs are harder to get, the same addicts will just find a substitute drug. The “War on Drugs” has been an abysmal failure. If you lock up the users, you’re just spending more money housing non violent offenders. If you lock up the sellers, someone else will take their place. Homeless drug addicts don’t fear jail, how could it be any worse than life on the stre…

If heroin were freely available (it costs almost nothing to produce), heroin addicts could be productive members of society, and would have nothing to fear in seeking treatment. Nodding is the only thing dangerous about heroin addicts who have access to heroin, everything else is a symptom of prohibition. Additionally, long-term heroin addicts who have a consistent supply don't really nod much, or for long. It's the…

Seizures (untreated) make one ineligible to drive and even when treated typically get a 90 day ban while medically evaluated.
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