Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#31

Post by agent00f » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

kombucha11 wrote: post #13

zigzaggy wrote: post #3

“During her news conference, Ms. Lam pinned blame for the chaos on the government failing to effectively explain to people why the bill was needed, rather than conceding protesters’ arguments that the law was flawed.” Politically savvy approach, but completely ridiculous. HKers understand exactly what this bill would do to them. Nothing makes me more angry than bureaucrats with bad intentions treating…

Well she may be from HK and she gets paid by HK government but we all know she's a mainland shill and was chosen for that reason. She is 100pc in the pocket of the mainland government

I'm curious where people like you were when hk wasn't democratically ruled by the Brits.

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#32

Post by agent00f » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

thinkpad20 wrote: post #16

baby wrote: post #4

Her discourse is really manipulative, in it you can find your typical attempt to divide people by focusing on the downside of demonstrations (injuries, crime, etc.), on the lie that it is a divisible bill, and on fake low numbers (10,000? more like millions). This is very concerning. It feels like Hong Kong is doomed to lose more and more of its independence, and freedom of speech, and freedom of press, as the years…

“as much as I love China and can understand their politics due to the size of their country” The size of China is not the source of their politics; the source is a totalitarian state that ruthlessly suppresses any dissent and maintains constant surveillance of its people. Not to imply that you meant otherwise, but the citizens of mainland China are no less deserving of political rights than those of Hong Kong; rather…

I'm curious where all these concerned westerners were when hk was undemocratically ruled by the Brits as a colony.

Were they ignorant of what they meant at the time or did they not care so long as others were ruled by their own?

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#33

Post by anonymousab » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

acoderhasnoname wrote: post #27

As far as i understand the bill doesn't apply to those with political or religious offense. what are these people protest against?

Give an inch and they'll take a mile. The slippery slope is a very valid concern with one of the most powerful potential adversaries actively wanting to integrate you and dismantle your system of government.

From their perspective it's not hard to imagine China trumping up charges (or getting one of the other listed nations to do it) to get their hands on someone they want. Likewise, having the law on the books at all makes it a (comparatively) very small step to simply add more things to the list of acceptable extradition reasons.

China's domestic actions have not given HKers much reason to trust them, and they know that they won't have any chance of clawing back any measure of sovereignty in their system that they give up now.

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#34

Post by ephemeralism » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

elefanten wrote: post #10

ETHisso2017 wrote: post #8

I'm impressed, this is much more responsive than how Macron has handled the gilets jaunes.

One can't really compare a democratically elected president bound by rule of law and various balances to a totalitarian puppet.

There's no law preventing him from resigning.

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#35

Post by magnusjonsson » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

acoderhasnoname wrote: post #27

As far as i understand the bill doesn't apply to those with political or religious offense. what are these people protest against?

China has a lot of vague laws and a history of making up accusations to fit the occasion, with no way for HK judges to examine evidence, and trial with presumption of guilt. This excellent comment on reddit by IosueYu answers the question better than I ever could: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bvux0z/hong_kong_...

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#36

Post by atdrummond » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

agent00f wrote: post #28

baby wrote: post #4

Her discourse is really manipulative, in it you can find your typical attempt to divide people by focusing on the downside of demonstrations (injuries, crime, etc.), on the lie that it is a divisible bill, and on fake low numbers (10,000? more like millions). This is very concerning. It feels like Hong Kong is doomed to lose more and more of its independence, and freedom of speech, and freedom of press, as the years…

What you can count on to never be reported in the Western press is that hk wasn't a democratic society under nearly all of British colonial rule. It wasn't until right before the handover that the Brits instituted elections to create hostility between hk and China, as they had a habit of doing in their colonies like between sunnis/shiites in the middle east whenever such division benefits them. Of course their politi…

This is a simplistic assessment of the situation, given the UK's attempts in the 1940s/1950s (The Young Plan) and prior to the handoff to do exactly what you claim they had no interest in.

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#37

Post by magnusjonsson » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

agent00f wrote: post #30

acoderhasnoname wrote: post #27

As far as i understand the bill doesn't apply to those with political or religious offense. what are these people protest against?

These types of protests are largely encouraged by the West to deepen division within it's enemies, same as with sunni/shiites in the middle east, or gop/democrats by the Russians. You can tell because the West didn't give a single shit when hk wasn't democratically ruled by the Brits, but now democracy there is headline propaganda.

The PRC didn't exactly cooperate when the UK wanted to introduce democratic measures in HK well before the handover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong...

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#38

Post by johncolanduoni » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:14 PM UTC

agent00f wrote: post #32

thinkpad20 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“as much as I love China and can understand their politics due to the size of their country” The size of China is not the source of their politics; the source is a totalitarian state that ruthlessly suppresses any dissent and maintains constant surveillance of its people. Not to imply that you meant otherwise, but the citizens of mainland China are no less deserving of political rights than those of Hong Kong; rather…

I'm curious where all these concerned westerners were when hk was undemocratically ruled by the Brits as a colony. Were they ignorant of what they meant at the time or did they not care so long as others were ruled by their own?

Well we were all over 20 years younger, so I’m not sure you can act like we’re talking about the exact same people.

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#39

Post by confusedhnguy » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

agent00f wrote: post #28

baby wrote: post #4

Her discourse is really manipulative, in it you can find your typical attempt to divide people by focusing on the downside of demonstrations (injuries, crime, etc.), on the lie that it is a divisible bill, and on fake low numbers (10,000? more like millions). This is very concerning. It feels like Hong Kong is doomed to lose more and more of its independence, and freedom of speech, and freedom of press, as the years…

What you can count on to never be reported in the Western press is that hk wasn't a democratic society under nearly all of British colonial rule. It wasn't until right before the handover that the Brits instituted elections to create hostility between hk and China, as they had a habit of doing in their colonies like between sunnis/shiites in the middle east whenever such division benefits them. Of course their politi…

Being a tech-oritented online community, I assumed that the average HN readers at least care about basic facts. Little did I know about all the ignorant and arrogant comments I was about to see. The West needs a new enemy. Until China folds and become a puppy state like Japan, or get turned into a mess like the Middle East, this propaganda wagon will go stronger and stronger.

Re: Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned

#40

Post by throwaway34241 » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 10:32 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #7

powerapple wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is going to lose more and more independence. The one country two system was designed to integrate, not dividing China and HK. The independence movement concentrate too much on 'two systems', bringing 'HK is not China' banner in parliament, trying to make China disappear in text books, do you think the central government is going to extend two systems after 50 years expires?

It was always meant to, but people naively assumed that like every other Asian developing country (South Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, Phillipines) rising incomes would eventually result in a democratic China.

> rising incomes would eventually result

Wouldn't write that off altogether for longer values of "eventually". The current government's political legitimacy is in part tied to delivering economic development. But obviously rapid exponential growth can't continue forever. After that levels off (and with incomes/education/institutions etc more developed), it doesn't seem unthinkable that some sort of political reform will need to be on the table again in order to maintain legitimacy. Maybe not from Xi Jinping, but he's 66, he won't be president of China forever.