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LaTeX Workflow on iPad

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Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#81

Post by pjmlp »

robenkleene wrote: post #80
pjmlp wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many processes an IDE uses is an implementation detail. The large majority of Apple and Microsoft developer communities live on their IDEs as part of our workflow. Scripting and automatization can be easily done from the IDE as well, thanks to macros, REPL and build integration points. Dropping down into a UNIX like CLI is the exception, not the norm for a large community. Ah, but what about WSL? Well, Microsoft…

You seem to be saying that because developers spend 90% of their time in an editor or IDE and 10% of their time on the command line, that they don't need the command line? I think that's what you are saying with this "dropping down into a UNIX like CLI is the exception, not the norm for a large community"? Because I'm not aware of any "large community" of developers that don't use the command line at all ? So the exc…

We happen to live in different developer communities, it seems.

Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#82

Post by robenkleene »

pjmlp wrote: post #81
robenkleene wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be saying that because developers spend 90% of their time in an editor or IDE and 10% of their time on the command line, that they don't need the command line? I think that's what you are saying with this "dropping down into a UNIX like CLI is the exception, not the norm for a large community"? Because I'm not aware of any "large community" of developers that don't use the command line at all ? So the exc…

We happen to live in different developer communities, it seems.

Yeah, but I'm not arguing whether developers exist who don't use the command line, of course they do. The question is simply whether the majority of programmers use the command line? I'm proposing that they do, unfortunately there's no available data for this point specifically, so we end up falling back to anecdote. But I am still super curious about your perspective on this. From what I've observed anecdotally, and from the most relevant data I've looked at, I'd guess the percentage of professional developers that rely on the command line is at least 80% (I am giving a lot of leeway for Microsoft-stack developers, which I'm not really familiar with, excluding developers using Microsoft technologies, I'd say well over 90% of professional developers rely on the command line). Do you disagree with these estimates? And if you don’t mind answering, where would you put the percent? (I'd also be super curious which technologies developers that don't use the command line are on.)

Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#83

Post by pjmlp »

robenkleene wrote: post #82
pjmlp wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We happen to live in different developer communities, it seems.

Yeah, but I'm not arguing whether developers exist who don't use the command line, of course they do. The question is simply whether the majority of programmers use the command line? I'm proposing that they do, unfortunately there's no available data for this point specifically, so we end up falling back to anecdote. But I am still super curious about your perspective on this. From what I've observed anecdotally, and…

The thing you are missing that what UNIX devs rely on the command line for, is easily achievable by scripting, REPLs, and IDE integration.

For example I can do everything I need from Python or PowerShell from inside Visual Studio, just like Xerox PARC devs used to do with their REPLs on Lisp, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar workstations.

Naturally I am forced to drop down to old style command line every now and then, but that is forced upon me by tools I don't create, and most of the time they are ports from UNIX tooling.

Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#84

Post by robenkleene »

pjmlp wrote: post #83
robenkleene wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but I'm not arguing whether developers exist who don't use the command line, of course they do. The question is simply whether the majority of programmers use the command line? I'm proposing that they do, unfortunately there's no available data for this point specifically, so we end up falling back to anecdote. But I am still super curious about your perspective on this. From what I've observed anecdotally, and…

The thing you are missing that what UNIX devs rely on the command line for, is easily achievable by scripting, REPLs, and IDE integration. For example I can do everything I need from Python or PowerShell from inside Visual Studio, just like Xerox PARC devs used to do with their REPLs on Lisp, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar workstations. Naturally I am forced to drop down to old style command line every now and then, but th…

Got it, yeah as long as we agree most programmers do use the command line. I actually agree that there are hypothetical ways a command line could almost always be replaced, but to me the important part is that most developers choose not to replace it. (And I’d argue that dependence on the command line is actually increasing overtime, with package management, version control, continuous integration, and modern editor features being implement on top of it.)

The question I pose then, is if these things are possible to do in other ways, and those other ways are better, why don't professional developers choose to use them? For example, why isn’t programming on an iPad popular? I.e., where these other methods are literally the only way to do programming on device? Using SSH to program entirely in a terminal is almost certainly more popular for professional developers than any other approach of programming on an iPad (using blog posts about how professional developers develop on an iPad as an indicator).

Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#85

Post by pjmlp »

robenkleene wrote: post #84
pjmlp wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing you are missing that what UNIX devs rely on the command line for, is easily achievable by scripting, REPLs, and IDE integration. For example I can do everything I need from Python or PowerShell from inside Visual Studio, just like Xerox PARC devs used to do with their REPLs on Lisp, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar workstations. Naturally I am forced to drop down to old style command line every now and then, but th…

Got it, yeah as long as we agree most programmers do use the command line. I actually agree that there are hypothetical ways a command line could almost always be replaced, but to me the important part is that most developers choose not to replace it. (And I’d argue that dependence on the command line is actually increasing overtime, with package management, version control, continuous integration, and modern editor…

Because those blog posts are from UNIX devs trying to use iPads for UNIX like work.

This is how Apple devs actually do development on iPads.

- Swift Playgrounds

- Pythonista

- Continuous for C# and F#

- Lisping

- Raskell

- GLSL Studio

Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#86

Post by macintux »

_ph_ wrote: post #73
macintux wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said the lost revenue if the feature were offered wasn’t important. I didn’t say anything about the value of the users.

But you cannot reasonably look at the one without considering the other.

Clearly I’m not explaining myself well.

The point I objected to comes at the end of this quote:

> I've often wondered whether Apple could do well by doing something similar to Crostini on ChromeOS, to allow these things to actually work as intended, but without impacting security. But that also probably doesn't sell software as effectively, as free software doesn't pay Apple's cut.

The implication is that Apple wouldn’t develop such a feature because it might cut into their profits. I don’t buy that reasoning: Apple wouldn’t lose much if any money by offering that.

Update: and I also don’t believe that Apple would deprioritize it because would cost them some money. Far more likely they’d decide it isn’t sufficiently useful, or would cause other problems, be too confusing, etc.

Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#88

Post by robenkleene »

pjmlp wrote: post #85
robenkleene wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got it, yeah as long as we agree most programmers do use the command line. I actually agree that there are hypothetical ways a command line could almost always be replaced, but to me the important part is that most developers choose not to replace it. (And I’d argue that dependence on the command line is actually increasing overtime, with package management, version control, continuous integration, and modern editor…

Because those blog posts are from UNIX devs trying to use iPads for UNIX like work. This is how Apple devs actually do development on iPads. - Swift Playgrounds - Pythonista - Continuous for C# and F# - Lisping - Raskell - GLSL Studio

I’m only interested in whether the majority of professional developers are able to ship software to their users. Is your stance that you can do that just fine with just the tools you listed and therefore professional developers don’t need the command line on iOS?

Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#89

Post by pjmlp »

robenkleene wrote: post #88
pjmlp wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those blog posts are from UNIX devs trying to use iPads for UNIX like work. This is how Apple devs actually do development on iPads. - Swift Playgrounds - Pythonista - Continuous for C# and F# - Lisping - Raskell - GLSL Studio

I’m only interested in whether the majority of professional developers are able to ship software to their users. Is your stance that you can do that just fine with just the tools you listed and therefore professional developers don’t need the command line on iOS?

I guess that I am not a professional developer, apparently.

Re: LaTeX Workflow on iPad

#90

Post by necovek »

robenkleene wrote: post #60
pjmlp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all Macs up to OS X weren't usable it seems.

This comment is hilarious. Apple switches from Classic Mac OS to OS X, the defining difference being that OS X has Unix underpinnings. Apple then goes from almost going out of business to being one of richest companies in the world (sometimes the richest). And this is supposed to be evidence that the command line isn't important?

The original comment argues a different claim: a terminal is not required to be considered usable.

As for success, I'd say that what brought Apple back to making money was iTunes and iPods, followed by iPhones.

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