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Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

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Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#121

Post by delibes »

Angostura wrote: post #116
pjmlp wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple wasn't visible at all in Europe during those days, Atari, Amiga and IBM PC ruled this side of the Atlantic. Now had Compaq not been so lucky, then the PCs might have indeed gone nowhere.

Certainly in the UK (special case?), that's not the case . We certainly had Apple ][s at school and 6th form in the UK as the main machines - later replaced by BBC model Bs and back then there were summer camps doing computing for enthusiastic youngsters. Apple was again the computer of choice in the early days, to be replaced later by the ZX Spectrum.

Not sure I agree. Just my anecdotal data of course, but I don't remember seeing an Apple II in UK schools in the 80s, but definitely BBC Micro/Master and a few Archimedes later. This was in 2-3 North West state schools, so there might have been regional differences.

Edit - oh yes, and about the ZX Spectrum... I can't imagine anyone willingly changing from something else to that rubber keyboard! Yuck.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#122

Post by pjmlp »

Angostura wrote: post #116
pjmlp wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple wasn't visible at all in Europe during those days, Atari, Amiga and IBM PC ruled this side of the Atlantic. Now had Compaq not been so lucky, then the PCs might have indeed gone nowhere.

Certainly in the UK (special case?), that's not the case . We certainly had Apple ][s at school and 6th form in the UK as the main machines - later replaced by BBC model Bs and back then there were summer camps doing computing for enthusiastic youngsters. Apple was again the computer of choice in the early days, to be replaced later by the ZX Spectrum.

My UK knowledge from those days was thanks to Crash, Your Sinclair, BBC Micro, Input Magazine and Computer Shopper, so I might be bit biased in regards to any sort of Apple's widespread adoption.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#123

Post by astrange »

ttul wrote: post #13
gilbetron wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$25k after inflation. I had no idea it was that expensive!

The IBM PC in 1981 cost $4,500 to $8,500 in today's money. The original Mac would cost $6,000 if released today. Computers have become a great deal cheaper in the ensuing decades.

> Computers have become a great deal cheaper in the ensuing decades.

By the way, it turns out people think "automation is replacing jobs in manufacturing" because they've misread the data showing them just how much cheaper computers have gotten since then, and therefore how much more computer one factory employee can make.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#124

Post by TelmoMenezes »

delibes wrote: post #121
Angostura wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly in the UK (special case?), that's not the case . We certainly had Apple ][s at school and 6th form in the UK as the main machines - later replaced by BBC model Bs and back then there were summer camps doing computing for enthusiastic youngsters. Apple was again the computer of choice in the early days, to be replaced later by the ZX Spectrum.

Not sure I agree. Just my anecdotal data of course, but I don't remember seeing an Apple II in UK schools in the 80s, but definitely BBC Micro/Master and a few Archimedes later. This was in 2-3 North West state schools, so there might have been regional differences. Edit - oh yes, and about the ZX Spectrum... I can't imagine anyone willingly changing from something else to that rubber keyboard! Yuck.

> oh yes, and about the ZX Spectrum... I can't imagine anyone willingly changing from something else to that rubber keyboard! Yuck.

The ZX Spectrum had tons of games (many of them quite creative, many weird), all kinds of software (limitied, of course, but even a Lisp) and several magazines dedicated to it. Many of my friends owned one, so it was much more fun than owning a more obscure computer, no matter how much better its keyboard was. Remember, there was no internet.

I still have nostalgic conversations with friends from that time about how magic the ZX Spectrum world was.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#125

Post by astrange »

valleyer wrote: post #104
mepian wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QuickDraw, the 2D graphics library, is probably the biggest part of the Lisa that lived on in the Mac.

Additionally, the Lisa Desktop Library contains many similarly named routines to the Mac Toolbox. The Lisa Desktop Library was never directly exposed to third-party applications though. (The Lisa Toolkit exposed it indirectly.) Lisa Desktop Library: https://www.apple.asimov.net/documentation/applelisa/AppleLi... As an example, the Lisa Desktop Library has PROCEDURE HiLiteMenu(menuId: INTEGER); The Xcode 11 beta that…

That function is inside an #if 32-bit, which means it no longer actually exists in 64-bit only macOS.

I think AppleScript/Apple Events is the oldest technology still standing, but maybe printing and scanning is older.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#126

Post by rjsw »

pjmlp wrote: post #115
cntlzw wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard Apple was popular in Switzerland.

Might be, but in the Iberian Penisula, UK and Germany, the countries I can speak about during those days, it was hardly seen around.

Apple was visible in the UK during that time.

I used Apple ][s and had a demo of the Lisa when it was being launched.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#127

Post by Crinus »

outworlder wrote: post #39
bluedino wrote: post #34

Did much of Lisa even survive to become the Mac, or was it just in spirit? Considering you needed a Lisa to develop for the Mac for the first few years, it’s good that they made it.

Spirit. The Lisa was a MUCH more powerful computer than the first Mac - which is why you needed a Lisa in the first place. The Mac wasn't able to run much of anything developed for the Lisa. Mac software was written in machine language, as I recall the Lisa made more use of higher level languages, so even the tool chain would be problematic. Check folklore.org for more stories of that time.

Specifically, Apple Pascal: http://pascal-central.com/images/pascalposter.jpg (i want to recreate this in SVG and print a real poster out of it at some point).

Although AFAIK the original Mac was also programmable with Pascal (in folklore it mentions that the calculator, etc were initially written in Pascal as examples for the API).

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#128

Post by xenadu02 »

Narishma wrote: post #55
Chazprime wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parent’s Mac II cost over $6000 at the time we got it. Compared to the IBM PCs at the time, the 640x480 hires display was stunningly gorgeous!

The Mac II was released in 1987. On the PC side, VGA cards were introduced a year earlier and could do those resolutions.

Do you have any idea what a VGA card cost at the time, or what a VGA CRT would run you?

Your comparison is hardly apt.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#129

Post by Crinus »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #88
adventured wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was out of his control, foisted upon him. He didn't want the responsibility at the time, didn't want to focus his time on it. So for an immature 20 something, he took the route of deny deny deny to evade it. Lisa had noted with emphasis previously his pattern for having something less than no patience for things that took his time against his wishes (when he didn't want them to). Combined with his emotional issues…

"It was out of his control, foisted upon him. He didn't want the responsibility at the time, didn't want to focus his time on it. So for an immature 20 something, he took the route of deny deny deny to evade it." ??? '20 something' is well into adultland . You want a good job? You want to vote? You want to be treated as an adult? Then there's no such thing as 'out of his control', really. For someone who's ostensibly…

You misunderstood what adventured wrote, it isn't that he (adventured) believes that it was out of Jobs' control, but that Jobs himself saw something happening (his daughter's birth) that he didn't control. Jobs wanted to be in control.

This is stuff Lisa herself has written about.

(also 20somethings can act very immature, as can 30somethings, 40somethings, etc and the opposite where teenagers act more mature than expected - it is that "expected" part that sometimes fails with people, not everyone is the same)

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#130

Post by C1sc0cat »

Angostura wrote: post #116
pjmlp wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple wasn't visible at all in Europe during those days, Atari, Amiga and IBM PC ruled this side of the Atlantic. Now had Compaq not been so lucky, then the PCs might have indeed gone nowhere.

Certainly in the UK (special case?), that's not the case . We certainly had Apple ][s at school and 6th form in the UK as the main machines - later replaced by BBC model Bs and back then there were summer camps doing computing for enthusiastic youngsters. Apple was again the computer of choice in the early days, to be replaced later by the ZX Spectrum.

Apple ][ was very popular in the UK for Business - it never took hold in educational markets like it did in the USA as it was to expensive.
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