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HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

jeromecohen.net

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Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#81

Post by luckylion »

ksec wrote: post #78
luckylion wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Which part of the discussion were not mature? For my personal taste: the "I don't agree with this opinion so I will downvote this comment instead of replying with an argument" part that many users engage in. I see two explanations: infantile "NO NO NO" and malicious "if I downvote this, it will be buried and fewer others will see it". Given the design of the voting and flagging system and the fact that it's not…

It is not about disagreeing per se, it is just plain wrong. 2 + 2 will never be 22, doesn't matter how you spin it. ( Edit, Ok may be in Javascript ) He made a statement, about not being able to put trial in the same country, I also made a statement about it is a future not a bug. And the reply I got was discussion were not mature. Had the first sentence been a question as to why, you cant have the trial inside the o…

> And the reply I got was discussion were not mature.

I believe, and his further comments strengthen my belief, that this wasn't aimed at your comment, but at the fact that he got mass downvoted. That has since changed considerably, as it tends to do when it's highlighted. The counts are not public, but at the time I wrote my comment, his was practically background-colored.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#82

Post by suff »

Bakary wrote: post #63
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong still has a huge advantage compared to mainland cities with respect to its liberties and legal framework, making it often the better place to do business than say Shanghai or Shenzhen. However, the CPC is quickly eroding these advantages.

These help a lot to be sure, but the city has gone from having an economy that was almost a third of the mainland's in 1993, to a fifth at the handover, to less than 3% today.[0] It is still important but no longer crucial to China. In a generation or so, it will be just another city among dozens. The idea that rights and liberties are absolutely essential is a nice bedtime story we can tell ourselves, but if there w…

Nobody is bowing to your tyrannical world view. It stops here.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#83

Post by suff »

superfx wrote: post #53
nicolas_t wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCP planned in term of decades and were more far sighted than western politicians. This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping who is a short sighted petty autocrat but unfortunately extremely good at political maneuvering to concentrate power in his hands and undoing what little checks were instituted by Deng Xiaoping. I had high hopes for China's future back when I lived there but that is no longer the case with the…

This strikes me as the quintessential problem with autocracies. Sometimes one gets extremely efficient governments in the short term, when the autocrat is competent and not entirely corrupt, but in the long run whatever short term gains were had are squandered by corruption and greed. Democracy is inefficient in the short term but efficient in the long run.

Well said.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#84

Post by AnimalMuppet »

re-actor wrote: post #13
throwaway2048 wrote: post #7

For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.

I don't think CCP has put on any pretence about desiring peaceful re-unification.

Oh, I'm pretty sure they'd take it if they could get it. They just don't see any realistic chance that they could ever get it.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#85

Post by kevin_b_er »

07d046 wrote: post #30
egao1980 wrote: post #23

How this is worse than US extraditions / kidnapping of foreign nationals abroad? Never mind Assange there are plenty of people arrested outside of US and moved to US prison.

For every thing the American judicial system does wrong, China does a hundred things worse. The conviction rate in China is well over 99% (if they want to find you guilty, they will). You can be detained with no access to a lawyer or family indefinitely. There is no separation of powers (the legal system isn't independent of the political system, and the constitution isn't worth anything). Torture and forced confessi…

This is because China lacks the rule of law and the CPC considers the very notion a threat to their power. They're probably right. The rule of law would diminish the CPC's authoritarian principals.

The only rule in CPC China is whatever the CPC says is the rule, at the time they say it. The consider human rights to be dangerous to the CPC. The fundamental opposition to human rights is spelled out in "Communiqué on the Current State of the Ideological Sphere" in 2013.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#86

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Bakary wrote: post #63
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong still has a huge advantage compared to mainland cities with respect to its liberties and legal framework, making it often the better place to do business than say Shanghai or Shenzhen. However, the CPC is quickly eroding these advantages.

These help a lot to be sure, but the city has gone from having an economy that was almost a third of the mainland's in 1993, to a fifth at the handover, to less than 3% today.[0] It is still important but no longer crucial to China. In a generation or so, it will be just another city among dozens. The idea that rights and liberties are absolutely essential is a nice bedtime story we can tell ourselves, but if there w…

> These help a lot to be sure, but the city has gone from having an economy that was almost a third of the mainland's in 1993, to a fifth at the handover, to less than 3% today.

That is because of China's growth, not Hong Kong's loss. China was just way way behind in 1993.

> The idea that rights and liberties are absolutely essential is a nice bedtime story we can tell ourselves, but if there weren't multiple paths towards economic development, then China would never have risen to the current level.

Frankly, just being able to access gmail without using a flaky VPN is a huge boon to many when doing international business.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#87

Post by Bakary »

suff wrote: post #82
Bakary wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These help a lot to be sure, but the city has gone from having an economy that was almost a third of the mainland's in 1993, to a fifth at the handover, to less than 3% today.[0] It is still important but no longer crucial to China. In a generation or so, it will be just another city among dozens. The idea that rights and liberties are absolutely essential is a nice bedtime story we can tell ourselves, but if there w…

Nobody is bowing to your tyrannical world view. It stops here.

I'm not exactly sure what your comment is even supposed to mean, but I'll bite. Maybe my predictions will turn out to be dead wrong, but as it stands it's unlikely that anyone is willing or prepared to stop what China is doing, and it's unlikely that Hong Kong is going to last very long because they have less and less power as time goes by. I personally am a lot more sympathetic to HK's struggle, and I encourage people to take to the streets because it is very likely to be their last stand. They certainly have more balls than I do. But life isn't like a movie and I'm pretty pessimistic about their chances.

If there is tyranny, it's just that it always comes down to power in the end. Freedom and the rule of law work well because they have made it easier for a society to flourish over the long term, but if conditions change so can their effectiveness. I wouldn't be surprised if human rights disappear like a puff of smoke if the 99% lose their bargaining power because of automation.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#88

Post by tepidandroid »

suff wrote: post #82
Bakary wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These help a lot to be sure, but the city has gone from having an economy that was almost a third of the mainland's in 1993, to a fifth at the handover, to less than 3% today.[0] It is still important but no longer crucial to China. In a generation or so, it will be just another city among dozens. The idea that rights and liberties are absolutely essential is a nice bedtime story we can tell ourselves, but if there w…

Nobody is bowing to your tyrannical world view. It stops here.

This is kind of a childish comment. What authority do you have to stop someone from freely expressing their opinion?

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#89

Post by kevin_b_er »

hyperpallium wrote: post #35
188201 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong…

Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an incredibly valuable asset?

It was a valuable asset, 20 years ago, but the CPC has developed enough other cities to be large and rich. There are some excellent graphs if you search that show the relative % of the Chinese economy that HK was in 1980 vs now. Now it is a much smaller portion of the total economy. The CPC is now considering that HK might be sacrifice necessary to maintain their authoritarian control over China because they cannot allow the ideas of human rights to spread to the mainland china population.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#90

Post by close04 »

roywiggins wrote: post #55
close04 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know what other countries do in such cases? The US has consistently addressed possible terrorists with black sites or drone strikes (executions). So is it beyond the realm of possibility that at least parts of undercover spy networks are dealt with in similar ways? And is there any expectation that a newspaper would be able to exercise the right to free speech and report on this given that a gag order is enough…

You may recall the Russian "Illegals." They were exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program Also the "Cuban Five", who either served a prison sentence or were exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five You may be surprised to hear it, but the FBI (who runs internal counterespionage in the US) operates rather differently from China. I suppose the FBI could be organizing hits on American citizen…

All sides use some of the captured spies for exchanges, it's good business. And I'm sure all of them also kill some to send a message, also good business sometimes (in this case 18-20 killed or imprisoned). My point wasn't to single out one agency - FBI, CIA, etc. Is your honest belief that no foreign spies were executed on US soil, or no spy networks were dismantled like this?

"Combatants" (in quotes because the meaning tended to change over time) that take no issues with killing (collateral victims included), torturing, holding people for decades with no due process, or even something as plain and legal as the death penalty for crimes committed by their own citizens, etc. will draw the line at executing a foreign spy that ostensibly deserves it according to most countries' laws and rules of engagement? Why would spies be treated any better than any enemy or even the citizens?

There's no point in singling out one country for something like this unless you're specifically looking to deceive yourself straight up the moral high ground. In this "business" expect things that are lowest of the low on any moral scale. From all sides.

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