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HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

jeromecohen.net

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Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#51

Post by [deleted] »

hyperpallium wrote: post #35
188201 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong…

Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an incredibly valuable asset?

[deleted]

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#52

Post by roywiggins »

Nasrudith wrote: post #29
some_random wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just execute the spies. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...

I thought those were jusr their catspaws and the norm for spying was far more sociopathically aristocratic - the official spies have if not holding diplomatic immunity have some sort of official connection. Executing them is technically legally perscribed but simply not done in practice - instead being kept for prisoner exchanges. Their networks of local contacts who do the actual work may not even get the benefit of…

The handlers usually do have diplomatic cover. The sources don't, they're local people with access to valuable information. "Catspaws" is not quite right. The people who got rounded up in China were CIA sources.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#53

Post by superfx »

nicolas_t wrote: post #19
throwaway2048 wrote: post #7

For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.

CCP planned in term of decades and were more far sighted than western politicians. This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping who is a short sighted petty autocrat but unfortunately extremely good at political maneuvering to concentrate power in his hands and undoing what little checks were instituted by Deng Xiaoping. I had high hopes for China's future back when I lived there but that is no longer the case with the…

This strikes me as the quintessential problem with autocracies. Sometimes one gets extremely efficient governments in the short term, when the autocrat is competent and not entirely corrupt, but in the long run whatever short term gains were had are squandered by corruption and greed. Democracy is inefficient in the short term but efficient in the long run.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#54

Post by JumpCrisscross »

DocTomoe wrote: post #5

Meanwhile, there is that Chinese Huawei Executive who is being held hostage in Canada as a trading chip in a trade war, waiting for her extradition to the US on the invented charges of having had traded with Iran (which is completely legal in China). If anything, I'd say it is a wonder that China has not started taking US Americans and Canadians hostage for the crime of being US American and/or Canadian.

> waiting for her extradition to the US

In a court of law, where she will have the chance to plead her case in public. If she is extradited, she will have that chance again in America. The government, in summary, will have to prove its case.

Such a system, the rule of law, doesn’t exist in China. (It does in Hong Kong.) That is why reasonable people are angry about this legislation.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#55

Post by roywiggins »

close04 wrote: post #22
some_random wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just execute the spies. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...

Do we know what other countries do in such cases? The US has consistently addressed possible terrorists with black sites or drone strikes (executions). So is it beyond the realm of possibility that at least parts of undercover spy networks are dealt with in similar ways? And is there any expectation that a newspaper would be able to exercise the right to free speech and report on this given that a gag order is enough…

You may recall the Russian "Illegals." They were exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program

Also the "Cuban Five", who either served a prison sentence or were exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five

You may be surprised to hear it, but the FBI (who runs internal counterespionage in the US) operates rather differently from China. I suppose the FBI could be organizing hits on American citizens suspected of spying for China, but on the whole it seems like one of the least likely abuses. The CIA gets up to all sorts of things abroad, but running a kidnap/murder program inside the country is not particularly the FBI's style.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#56

Post by julianlam »

egao1980 wrote: post #38
iamdelirium wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article doesn't talk about the US or Assange at all. Why are you even bringing it up?

Why moving criminals from one part of China to the other part of China becomes bigger issue than US kidnapping people all over the world?

I don't think people are arguing that this is a bigger issue, but merely that both issues are bad.

Perhaps you should be protesting the detainment of suspected criminals in Gitmo, then, instead of commenting here.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#57

Post by [deleted] »

egao1980 wrote: post #38
iamdelirium wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article doesn't talk about the US or Assange at all. Why are you even bringing it up?

Why moving criminals from one part of China to the other part of China becomes bigger issue than US kidnapping people all over the world?

[deleted]

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#58

Post by JumpCrisscross »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #2

Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system, and there is indeed a lot to be said about it, the current situation is rather strange. Indeed, it seems quite extraordinary that someone could not be sent from one territory of the PRC to another one to face trial.

> Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system

Beijing just unilaterally broke the Hong Kong handover agreement. In that agreement, China explicitly agreed that there would be two systems within PRC territory [1]. There is no way to sue the CPC in a Chinese court to enforce Hong Kong’s rights under the treaty.

In Hong Kong (as in Taiwan, Japan, Britain and the U.S.) the government is answerable to the law. In China, it is not. That is the crux of the issue. The way Beijing is cramming down this legislation is, funnily enough, the argument against it.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#60

Post by 188201 »

hyperpallium wrote: post #35
188201 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong…

Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an incredibly valuable asset?

I can't really rationalize why China would throw stone on its own feet, but there are two reasons I could think of.

One reason could be president Xi just can't back off because Xi is like Kim Jong-un in China. Xi has killed some of his political enemies and throw many of them to jail. If Xi shows any weakness to his internal enemies, he could not live long because he is playing too tough. It's like how a mafia boss works.

Another reason is taking back some US dollar from HK reserve. China is facing insufficient foreign currency for importing goods for production, or even food in trade war with US. One example is pork production, which China has large export in the world, but it relied on corn imported from US, so facing increased tax harm pork production in China a lot, and added up with African swine fever, the situation is even worse.

So, how would extradition law help? Basically there are some list of merchant in the hand of China who leaves China due to business disputed, bankrupt or any economic related prosecution. In China, they could start the court even with the absence of suspect. So, the court could proceed anytime and enforce any punishment without a lawyer to protect the suspect right. Without extradition law, it doesn't matter if the suspect left China. After the extradition law is passed, China would extradite those wanted list. And those wanted list could pay back some foreign currency in exchange.

Though, it is really just sacrificing long term advantage for short term benefit. Both reasons are really dumb but they can't stop. Chinese using nationalism to justify the party existence, since the party make China a strong country. But if it is not, then the party would start falling apart.

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