Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

jeromecohen.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 118 posts

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#41

Post by ilikehurdles »

egao1980 wrote: post #31
07d046 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every thing the American judicial system does wrong, China does a hundred things worse. The conviction rate in China is well over 99% (if they want to find you guilty, they will). You can be detained with no access to a lawyer or family indefinitely. There is no separation of powers (the legal system isn't independent of the political system, and the constitution isn't worth anything). Torture and forced confessi…

Which countries China has recently invaded and currently wages war against?

Whatever country Uyghurs reside in. So, seemingly... China itself.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#42

Post by School-Cotton »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #7

For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.

Peaceful reunification with Taiwan under CCP rule is already impossible. Neither side of Taiwanese politics would accept that: the big political divide in Taiwan is between people who consider themselves Taiwanese and support independence (pan-Green), and people who consider themselves Chinese but think the CCP are illegitimate rulers (pan-Blue).

Maybe this analogy is a bit of a stretch, but imagine the pan-Blue as ethnic Cubans in Florida, who despite feeling more Cuban than "Floridian" would never peacefully agree to Miami being reunited with Cuba under Castro regime rule.

The only way China and Taiwan could be reunited peacefully is if the CCP falls, the mainland becomes a capitalist liberal democracy acceptable, the pan-Blue coalition somehow becomes politically dominant in Taiwan despite being in opposition now, and they negotiate an agreement with the new Chinese regime. This is maybe not totally impossible, but still far-fetched.

I expect the CCP understands all of this. Since peaceful reunification with Taiwan is already impossible without the CCP going under anyway, it's not a good reason not to interfere with Hong Kong.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#43

Post by Bakary »

188201 wrote: post #24
wiggler00m wrote: post #12

I asked a Hong Kong lawyer this week about the proposed extradition law. In particular, of the following, who would it apply to: a) Chinese nationals; b) HK nationals; c) foreign nationals. He advised it would apply to all three. Edit: he also said it's not impossible the bill will be withdrawn.

Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong…

The writing is on the wall for Hong Kong even within China, as other cities have caught up economically.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#44

Post by ilikehurdles »

egao1980 wrote: post #34
ipython wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your solution, then? The demonstrators should realize the futility of their position, give up, go home, and allow the situation to deteriorate further? Engaging in whataboutism just encourages the bad behavior you're highlighting here. It's a logical fallacy that leads to learned helplessness and a nihilistic worldview that actually ends up perpetuating the same vicious cycle I assume you wish to prevent.

Hong Kong is China though it has a formal autonomy. Anyone who thinks differently is heading for a nasty surprise. Protests with street violence are making nice picture for Western media but will only bring trouble for individual local protesters. Criminal convictions, lost jobs, ruined careers. This benefits only external actors that coordinate unrest and trying to get leverage on CCP in foreign affairs.

Those committing violence -- the people in uniforms attacking protestors -- are not going to get criminal convictions or lose their jobs. This is China we're talking about.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#45

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Bakary wrote: post #43
188201 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong…

The writing is on the wall for Hong Kong even within China, as other cities have caught up economically.

Hong Kong still has a huge advantage compared to mainland cities with respect to its liberties and legal framework, making it often the better place to do business than say Shanghai or Shenzhen. However, the CPC is quickly eroding these advantages.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#46

Post by luckylion »

ksec wrote: post #11
NotPaidToPost wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought we could have mature discussions on HN. I was wrong. The current situation made some sense when HK was a colony of the British: The Brits made the law and did not cooperate too much with "the reds". But now, as someone looking at it from abroad, it makes no sense at all. This is not about "foresight" or anything like that. It does not help someone's cause to downvote comments and to refuse to discuss on fac…

1. Which part of the discussion were not mature? 2. The situation is not loophole left by the British. But it was specifically left in place so the one country two system would work for the next ( then ) 50 years. To guarantee the certain freedom of the Hong Kong people which was clearly listed out in the Sino-British Joint Declaration. 3. It is not a Riot . ( I am sorry but that has to be one of the most insulting t…

> 1. Which part of the discussion were not mature?

For my personal taste: the "I don't agree with this opinion so I will downvote this comment instead of replying with an argument" part that many users engage in. I see two explanations: infantile "NO NO NO" and malicious "if I downvote this, it will be buried and fewer others will see it". Given the design of the voting and flagging system and the fact that it's not discouraged, it appears that this is a desired behavior.

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#47

Post by peteretep »

hyperpallium wrote: post #35
188201 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong…

Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an incredibly valuable asset?

At least some portion of HKG’s loss will be the mainland’s gain, so there’s that to factor in

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#48

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nicolas_t wrote: post #19
throwaway2048 wrote: post #7

For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.

CCP planned in term of decades and were more far sighted than western politicians. This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping who is a short sighted petty autocrat but unfortunately extremely good at political maneuvering to concentrate power in his hands and undoing what little checks were instituted by Deng Xiaoping. I had high hopes for China's future back when I lived there but that is no longer the case with the…

> This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping

To expand, Xi is a leader for life [1]. China is best modelled as a large, wealthy dictatorship which will act to keep its narrow leadership in power. This is very different from the long-term planning which characterised its growth when it was capable of peaceful transitions of power.

Pushing this legislation (or kidnapping bookstore owners publicising corruption amongst Beijing’s elite [2]), for China, is stupid. It stokes a vocal, organised opposition to Beijing. It also makes clean integration in ‘47 less likely. (The fraction of Hong Kong residents identifying as Chinese versus Hong Kongese has plummeted in the last few years [3].) From the perspective or keeping Xi in power, however, the ham-fistedness makes sense.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-43361276

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappear...

[3] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-anniversary-idUS...

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#49

Post by mawbie »

hyperpallium wrote: post #35
188201 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong…

Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an incredibly valuable asset?

> incredibly valuable asset

Is it though?

Re: HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

#50

Post by Bakary »

nicolas_t wrote: post #19
throwaway2048 wrote: post #7

For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.

CCP planned in term of decades and were more far sighted than western politicians. This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping who is a short sighted petty autocrat but unfortunately extremely good at political maneuvering to concentrate power in his hands and undoing what little checks were instituted by Deng Xiaoping. I had high hopes for China's future back when I lived there but that is no longer the case with the…

The situation is a lot more complicated than you make it seem. We barely have any idea how inner politics work in China, since little information leaks out unlike in most other nations. I don't think you can make a definitive statement on a leader whose name you haven't spelt correctly.
Post reply on HN