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Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

chaseoptout.com

81–90 of 246 posts

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#81
ok, so this is being provided by a new/competing bank and a marketing agency. What could possibly go wrong?

A quick read of privacy policy should dissuade anyone form putting information into this system.

A+ for guerilla marketing

F- for anything related to privacy, etc...

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#82
post #57
post #27

Under the "What is the actual language in the agreement sent by Chase?" FAQ item, it says -- "Can I (the customer) reject this agreement to arbitrate? Yes. You have the right to reject this agreement to arbitrate if you notify us no later than 8/9/2019. You must do so in writing by stating that you reject this agreement to arbitrate and include your name, account number, address and personal signature . Your notice m…

Can someone knowledgeable explain how a company can pick and chose was does and what doesn't constitute a binding agreement? AFAIK in the Netherlands oral statements, when overheard by a witness, have the same legal standing as a signed contract.

I'm a US attorney but not in contracts. Contracts is a fairly complicated area of law, and the fundamental common law of Ks that you study in law school tends to be very different from how Ks work "on the ground." Most notably, statutes currently exist that change the way this common law operates in sometimes non-obvious ways. Standard disclaimer here that this is in no way to be construed as legal advice, this is not my area of expertise; take this as high-level background.

Essentially, under the common law here, all that a contract needs in order to be valid is three things: a valid offer, a valid acceptance, and valid "consideration," where consideration is a legal term of art referring to 'something of value' gained through the agreement.

The idea is that, there is no servitude. Companies can offer whatever terms they want (subject to a very few number of restrictions, dependent on the industry/regulatory domain). You are under no pressure to accept. You can easily reject the terms by simply not using the product. Courts have generally been reluctant to prevent parties from agreeing to whatever lawful thing they want to agree to. The main exception is that you cannot have contracts which serve 'an illegal end.'

In the US, there's no need for a contract to be written or overheard at all. There need be no written document, no witnesses, no record whatsoever. So long as there is a valid offer (obvious jokes are not held to be valid offers, for instance), valid acceptance (you generally need to affirmatively signal acceptance, but this need not be oral or even explicit), and valid consideration (really nothing more than a formality nowadays, this is why many deeds say "exchanged for consideration of $1"), the contract is valid, even if it only exists in the minds of the two parties.

Obviously, proving such a contract can be difficult, but it can be done, particularly if the parties were acting in accordance with the terms of the claimed contract. If we orally agree that you will start working on building a shed for me, you buy supplies and deliver them to the site, but then stop work, you can't claim the contract never existed, because you've acted in accordance with that oral contract.

In this area specifically, there's been some progress made in getting the courts to understand the enormous power differential at play here. You nearly can't survive in this country without at least one credit card, and if all the major companies' cards have terms like this, then you don't really actually have a choice in the matter. It's been a slow process however.

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#83
post #79
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, so can someone help me understand how bullet proof their privacy policy is ( https://www.chaseoptout.com/PrivacyPolicy.pdf )? It seems to me that it's pretty flimsy? In particular: > To conduct research and to improve and promote our services . We use the information wecollect to conduct research and to improve or enhance and promote our Services. Both promotion and research are pretty damn broad terms, right?

Oh dang. So this whole thing is just a big data grab. Even if they aren't going to make fraudulent charges, that's a clear ulterior motive.

not at all! We explicity ask if you want to opt in to future communications on our form - we are NOT using them to communicate with users if they do not opt in.

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#84
post #67
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're teaching users it's OK to give out their account information "sometimes". Which is much less secure than "never".

I give out my credit card number hundreds of times per year. Credit cards wouldn't be very useful if you never gave them out.

An ecommerce site has a merchant agreement with a payment processor to comply with PCI DSS. This does not. It is in no way similar.

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#86
post #57
post #27

Under the "What is the actual language in the agreement sent by Chase?" FAQ item, it says -- "Can I (the customer) reject this agreement to arbitrate? Yes. You have the right to reject this agreement to arbitrate if you notify us no later than 8/9/2019. You must do so in writing by stating that you reject this agreement to arbitrate and include your name, account number, address and personal signature . Your notice m…

Can someone knowledgeable explain how a company can pick and chose was does and what doesn't constitute a binding agreement? AFAIK in the Netherlands oral statements, when overheard by a witness, have the same legal standing as a signed contract.

It's called the "golden rule", they who have the gold make the rules.

OK, seriously, they don't technically get to decide what makes a binding agreement, a judge does that. But US law and US judges are very business-friendly. I mean there's the whole invented crime of "identity theft", whereby a bank who is defrauded by an individual gets to pass off their victimhood to a completely uninvolved third party.

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#87
So I will enter my credit card number and all my personal information in an unknown webpage just because they claim to protest against a bank? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND? WHAT SORT OF MORONS ARE WE SUPPOSED TO BE? This is the mother of all phishing scams!!! Who put that link up for publishing?

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#88
Aside from the issue of trust, the site does a terrible job of explaining how bad arbitration is.

The arbiter is permitted the following: * To make an arbitrary judgement outside the scope of the agreement. * The arbiter is not required to follow any law but the arbitration act. They are permitted a manifest disregard for the law. * The arbiter is not required to be fair or impartial. They aren't a judge. * The arbiter may be blacklisted by companies if they rule against the corporation. The companies know who rules against them. * The arbitrations are secret. You may research how the arbiter acted in the past. The company knows, though. You just don't.

To engage in a corporate controlled mandatory binding arbitration is to leave the rule of law and enter into a dystopia where even the courts of law are privatized. Consumer protection laws? Gone. State consumer laws? Gone.

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#89
post #27

Under the "What is the actual language in the agreement sent by Chase?" FAQ item, it says -- "Can I (the customer) reject this agreement to arbitrate? Yes. You have the right to reject this agreement to arbitrate if you notify us no later than 8/9/2019. You must do so in writing by stating that you reject this agreement to arbitrate and include your name, account number, address and personal signature . Your notice m…

We are relying on legal opinions that the site fully complies with the ESIGN Act. That act makes electronic signatures on par with physical signatures. (Disclosure = I'm not a lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Signatures_in_Globa...

[deleted]

Re: Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing

#90
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh dang. So this whole thing is just a big data grab. Even if they aren't going to make fraudulent charges, that's a clear ulterior motive.

not at all! We explicity ask if you want to opt in to future communications on our form - we are NOT using them to communicate with users if they do not opt in.

Then give the user the letter up front instead of hiding it in small text. This site has NO written all over it!
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