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Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

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Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#111

Post by mabbo »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #77
magduf wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoos like the San Diego wildlife park (it's separate from the older San Diego Zoo, and outside the city a little) are good this way: they have lots of room for the animals to roam and it's more like their natural habitats. Also, with some animals, keeping them in zoos in the best place for them because they wouldn't survive in the wild. Many zoos have permanently injured birds, for instance, that can't fly any more,…

Some zoos also undertake conservation efforts such as captive breeding and reintroduction. [0] is just one example. I hope bills like this don't swing the pendulum too far and end up hindering conservation. [0] http://www.torontozoo.com/Conservation/captive-breeding.asp

I think a middle ground can be found.

While I really love the Toronto zoo, watching their lynx pace back and forth in the cage, digging a path into the ground, that really impacted my impression of zoos generally. Perhaps large[0] cats like that don't belong in small enclosures.

[0]Lynx are actually much smaller than I expected, and bobcats even smaller than that. Still, they need a large space to thrive.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#112

Post by rafiki6 »

mbostleman wrote: post #55

I get all the problems for the animals and not suggesting that they should continue to endure those problems, but I hate to see the general public's access to nature further curtailed. The mainstream seems to love wild places and wild life as long as it's on Youtube yet they spend the entirety of their own lives in suburbs and retail landscapes with virtually no direct experience with nature. I wonder how many childr…

This is where technology like VR and AR can really take off. We shouldn't have to torture animals any longer to further our own species. We can create beautiful virtual worlds for games that are hyper realistic and fully interactive. We can push our selves to do the same and get rid of zoos. Why can't children go to museums and virtual field trips? Can you imagine something like Planet Earth but fully interactive in VR? We aren't that far off.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#113

Post by rafiki6 »

Canada should take the opportunity here and offer some funding to develop VR and AR that can help facilitate the transition away from having animals be captive...a sort of virtual Zoo. If they aim to build something like that and offer appropriate funding, I bet it can be a really interesting and competitive attraction that can be completed in 20 years.

Especially with the death of retail, can you imagine large retail spaces getting converted into awesome VR parks?

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#114

Post by codezero »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #102
codezero wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is brightness or intelligence shouldn’t be the measuring stick for compassion for living things.

Right. But that goes for everything? When are we required to get concerned? Just mammals? All the way to bugs?

There's lots of grey area, and it all ends up being personal preference, but I think if one makes it a goal to always empathize it's a great starting point.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#115

Post by diveanon »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #90
codezero wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you spend some time, I bet you can think of lots of reasons a creature might return to the same place. Many humans engage in self defeating behavior, should they be made into dog food, or should we empathise with them?

Without communicating with others to warn them of any danger. So, no dolphin cares about that? If they don't care, should we? I think its pretty cut-and-dried, dolphins are nowhere near as bright as humans.

But does that mean they are not intelligent sentient beings?

Dolphins do communicate with each other, they use vocal communication and body language. Our failure to understand it doesn't invalidate its existence.

They form lifelong familial bonds. They have friends and enemies and form complex social structures.

They play regularly and have advanced hunting tactics that require a high degree of coordination.

They even take recreational drugs.

I have spent a significant amount of time in the water with dolphins throughout my life, and I have developed relationships with dolphins I regularly see that are at the very least as complex as the one you have with the barrista that makes your coffee every day.

If the cutoff for intelligence is human intelligence, which human is the standard?

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#116

Post by ygjb »

Zenbit_UX wrote: post #22
swarnie_ wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you get a couple of marine biologist on your books and pump out a few papers per year the party can continue?

You can't make them perform for entertainment regardless of the loophole used to keep them.

You can make them perform if you get a license, according to the text for S-203 (see the link to the law in my other comment)

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#117

Post by ygjb »

mcv wrote: post #34
Zenbit_UX wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't make them perform for entertainment regardless of the loophole used to keep them.

It's not hard to think of a couple of research questions that involve them performing tricks. You might as well invite people to watch the research as it happens. (I'm not suggesting that they should do this, just that they will. "Research" can be an easily abused loophole. Just look at Japan and their whale "research".)

"Performances" by dolphins at the Vancouver Aquarium for several years have been feedings, and demonstrating research techniques (e.g. attaching and removing suction based sensors and tools, demonstrating how the animals have been trained to allow blood and other samples to be taken safely, etc). I still maintain my membership at the Vancouver Aquarium because I approve of pretty much all of their rescue programs, even though the breeding and in particular the Beluga program has been problematic in the past.

I am not a fan of keeping wild animals in captivity, but I am very much in favor of the types of rescue programs like those run by Vancouver Aquarium (and of captive breeding programs for at-risk, endangered, and extinct in the wild species).

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#118

Post by ygjb »

spookware wrote: post #56

So how do people now see whales or dolphins?

If you want to see Orcas in their natural habitat, take the ferry between Vancouver and Victoria. I do it frequently and we see Orcas somewhat regularly. It's not as convenient or predictable, but that much more amazing when you see them in the wild.

Also, if your very lucky you can walk around the sea wall in Vancouver and occasionally see Orcas and other aquatic wildlife.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#119

Post by hombre_fatal »

Reedx wrote: post #108
gingabriska wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the good reason for not extending it to cow, dog, cat etc...? Where do you draw the line?

That's a fair question. Just think about how many cats and dogs are stuck inside small apartments most of their lives.

Or on a roof/balcony. Living in Guadalajara, I've wanted to put many dogs out of their misery. Left on the roof as thief-deterrent to go completely crazy.

Our treatment of animals (pets, meat) is one of the indicators of how primitive we still are as a civilization... or, god forbid, species.

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