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Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

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Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#271

Post by Zenbit_UX »

openoi wrote: post #248
mark_l_watson wrote: post #157

I have thought about this lately because my wife and I moved to Illinois so I could accept a job managing a machine learning team. I retired and now we are just now moving back to Arizona. I spent five hours yesterday watching our stuff being wrapped and put on a truck. Lots of possessions. The thing is, I have some stuff that I really like. A teak bookcase I bought in the 1970s when I got my first real job after fin…

I wonder to what extent this influences what is known as the "endowment effect" in economics. The particular chair I am sitting in and have for months, is it really a more valuable one because it helps me remember? Now before we are quick to agree on a 'yes' -- to what extent do memories hold us back? Your teak bookcase for example reminds you of a positive accomplishment, and its loss would untether you, generally s…

I have to say, this whole trend screams of cognitive dissonance.

"I can't afford to buy so I don't want to anyways..." sounds like one of the primary motivators. Renting expensive items? How's this different from leasing or renting a supercar you can't afford to show off to friends or clients? It's not.

There's for sure some cases where this is a practical solution, like moving to another city for a year or two and getting some temporary furniture. But in most other cases in screams of sour grapes and businesses seeking to profit from people bad at math.

Rent a coffee table for $50 a month for a few years and then be happy you don't have to move it when you change apartments? Run the math on those numbers and you'll realize you're likely a fool. Sure, if you're buying things like cheap ikea furniture it's not likely to appreciate in value but most real hardwood furniture is generational and something of an investment.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#272

Post by navigatesol »

asark wrote: post #261
lisper wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you find Actually Good New Furniture nowadays?

You can get pretty decent solid wood furniture. Often it's "Amish" which doesn't mean hand-made or made with old-timey tools, of course, just made in an air-powered factory, probably, assuming it's not just marketing BS. Gotta watch out, a lot of it's not put together all that well. And you're not gonna find anything trendy (mid-century modern, say) looking in the lower (so, semi-reasonable) end of that price range,…

>Furniture quality has definitely gone downhill.

I'll bet that like almost everything throughout history, "good" furniture is far better quality than it's ever been, and "bad" furniture is now more stylish and accessible to more people than ever, albeit less durable than the best stuff. Do people really believe we've forgotten how to make couches?

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#273

Post by amelius »

grecy wrote: post #179
mark_l_watson wrote: post #157

I have thought about this lately because my wife and I moved to Illinois so I could accept a job managing a machine learning team. I retired and now we are just now moving back to Arizona. I spent five hours yesterday watching our stuff being wrapped and put on a truck. Lots of possessions. The thing is, I have some stuff that I really like. A teak bookcase I bought in the 1970s when I got my first real job after fin…

Keep it if it brings you happiness, after all, that's the point. It's the rest of the stuff that can go. I helped a friend move last month. After we'd been to the 5 places she kept her stuff, we discovered she had 5 coffee machines, 5 cutting boards, 5 juicers, etc. etc. The things you describe make you happier and are not stuff. The things I described are just stuff.

> Keep it if it brings you happiness, after all, that's the point.

But what if it doesn't make you happy AND selling/discarding it makes you unhappy?

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#274

Post by malvosenior »

navigatesol wrote: post #272
asark wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get pretty decent solid wood furniture. Often it's "Amish" which doesn't mean hand-made or made with old-timey tools, of course, just made in an air-powered factory, probably, assuming it's not just marketing BS. Gotta watch out, a lot of it's not put together all that well. And you're not gonna find anything trendy (mid-century modern, say) looking in the lower (so, semi-reasonable) end of that price range,…

> Furniture quality has definitely gone downhill. I'll bet that like almost everything throughout history, "good" furniture is far better quality than it's ever been, and "bad" furniture is now more stylish and accessible to more people than ever, albeit less durable than the best stuff. Do people really believe we've forgotten how to make couches?

While "good" furniture may be better than it's ever been, it's also more expensive than it's ever been. I don't know how much a good table cost in 1945 but I bet it wasn't the equivalent of $5,000 which is what it would be now.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#275

Post by justsomeguy3591 »

vinceguidry wrote: post #270
justsomeguy3591 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't realize how this could work until I looked at my own life and realized I would rather be an IC than a manager. Maybe a dumb question, but what is an IC in this context?

Individual contributor. Works great for me because I was never much of a joiner. My faith gets broken too easily.

That makes sense. Definitely feel like I'm adopting a similar mindset myself.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#276

Post by esoterica »

Retra wrote: post #45
dawhizkid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you come to that conclusion? The effect is the complete opposite...instead of a lot of people that move frequently (i.e. younger people) and buy/toss a lot of cheap Ikea furniture every year, you rent high end, long-lasting furniture that is delivered/removed for reuse.

When I moved frequently I bought an inflatable bed or cot. I didn't buy a king sized bed and throw it out every two years. That's insane.

Sleeping in an inflatable bed for two years is what’s insane. When I crash on a friend’s air mattress for a weekend I feel like death afterwards, but two years? I’d rather buy and throw away 10 beds and then withdraw the equivalent amount of cash from by checking account and set it on fire than sleep on an air mattress for 2 years.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#277

Post by Spooky23 »

andreilys wrote: post #241
Spooky23 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in very specific, unusual market conditions. Less than 3 years it makes sense to rent, but even then it’s difficult to time it so you align with the lease end. I live in a national average housing market, bought a house in 2006, and save about 30% on a monthly basis as compared to a much smaller two-bedroom apartment. I include mortgage, tax, insurance and a 7% holdback for repairs. Long term, renting is always…

The housing boom of the last few decades is a 'very specific unusual market condition'. Is it realistic for housing prices to keep rising at their current rate? Also in your cost calculation did you include the rate of return you would've made of your principal by putting it into equities? I imagine if you bought in 2006 and held you would be very happy right now.

I'm talking about living in a stupid place, like in the 75 mile radius from San Francisco as an unusual market condition.

From a cash flow perspective, I'm spending about $20k in housing related costs annually. Given that it was 2006, I did a 15 year 105% ltv fixed mortgage. Renting, I would have saved a few bucks for a few years. Right now, renting a 3 bedroom in a neighborhood acceptable to me would add about $750/mo in costs. Total cash in hand with market returns would be around $10k.

Meanwhile, the house will be free and clear in a few years. When we move in 5-7 years, we'll be recovering the original equity, plus capital gains, which will likely be in the $50-150k range depending on the market timing.

If the choice was between have near zero housing costs and living on property my family owns or buying a house as an investment, I would agree you that the market is a lower cost, likely higher return investment. Unfortunately, I don't have that choice!

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#278

Post by shalmanese »

lisper wrote: post #257
asark wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've observed the price of furniture to run, lowest to highest, something like: Bad Ikea, Flat-Pack Furniture from Anywhere Else, Beat-Up Antiques, Good Ikea, Unfashionable but Good Antiques, Oversized Overstuffed NFM[1] crap, Actually Good New Furniture, Fashionable Antiques Not linear, there's a big jump for the last two categories. While the quality/longevity runs more like: Flat-Pack Furniture from Anywhere Else,…

Where do you find Actually Good New Furniture nowadays?

Gomer Bolstrood

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#279

Post by tonyedgecombe »

gtsteve wrote: post #135
dingaling wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, one can use the savings from paying rent What savings? Rent as you stated already includes anticipated maintenance costs, property taxes, the landlord's mortgage costs, often an agency fee, plus a margin for the landlord. I don't think I've seen rental rates ever cheaper than a personal mortgage. The main advantage of renting is avoiding long-term commitment but you'll pay a premium for that flexibility. O…

I live in the UK. It's cheaper to buy than rent almost everywhere but I never minded that. The main thing that moved me to buy was because the protection for renters is nowhere near as good. I moved on average every 18 months for 10 years because the landlord decided they wanted to sell the place or just wanted me out so they could increase the rent. One landlord didn't even bother with that and just asked if I'd be…

In many ways I'd prefer to rent (in the UK as well) but won't because the rental market is so poor. We have been in the same location for over 20 years, I would have moved twice in that time if it weren't for the upheaval of buying and selling.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#280

Post by tonyedgecombe »

tom_ wrote: post #221
dingaling wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, one can use the savings from paying rent What savings? Rent as you stated already includes anticipated maintenance costs, property taxes, the landlord's mortgage costs, often an agency fee, plus a margin for the landlord. I don't think I've seen rental rates ever cheaper than a personal mortgage. The main advantage of renting is avoiding long-term commitment but you'll pay a premium for that flexibility. O…

Rent on an apartment that you'd be very happy to rent is often cheaper than a mortgage on a house you'd want to buy! It's not unusual for people to accept different compromises when they're not necessarily going to have to live somewhere indefinitely.

There is also a tendency to "invest" in your house in a way you wouldn't bother with if you didn't own it. We just bought a new oven, if a landlord was paying for it I'm sure they would have spent half of what we did.
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