Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#261

Post by asark » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #257

asark wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've observed the price of furniture to run, lowest to highest, something like: Bad Ikea, Flat-Pack Furniture from Anywhere Else, Beat-Up Antiques, Good Ikea, Unfashionable but Good Antiques, Oversized Overstuffed NFM[1] crap, Actually Good New Furniture, Fashionable Antiques Not linear, there's a big jump for the last two categories. While the quality/longevity runs more like: Flat-Pack Furniture from Anywhere Else,…

Where do you find Actually Good New Furniture nowadays?

You can get pretty decent solid wood furniture. Often it's "Amish" which doesn't mean hand-made or made with old-timey tools, of course, just made in an air-powered factory, probably, assuming it's not just marketing BS. Gotta watch out, a lot of it's not put together all that well. And you're not gonna find anything trendy (mid-century modern, say) looking in the lower (so, semi-reasonable) end of that price range, it's all Shaker and such. Wood itself may be from inferior (but cheaper) species, and of course there just isn't amazing lumber in any quantity anymore like there was 100+ years ago. Any mechanisms may be kinda crap, mostly just avoid fancy stuff. But quality can be had if you watch out to make sure you're not getting screwed.

I haven't found anything amazing that's upholstered but I assume the good products there are just out of my price range. I've got a couple Flexsteel pieces and they're at least a hell of a lot more durable than your average Ashley Furniture near-future-landfill-fodder, while being similarly priced to the "higher end" (LOL) of that sort of thing. The upholstery itself still sucks but at least the frames and springs may pass the decade mark. Good fabric and good stitching are very expensive (see: any non-terrible clothes) so, again, I probably just can't afford the good stuff there so I've not really seen it.

[EDIT] meanwhile I have my grandparents' couches they bought something like 40 years ago, and despite heavy use they've probably got another 3-5 years left in them (springs starting to go, finally) and no burst seams or rips in the fabric, even on the cushions. Hell, the cushions aren't even getting flat. I guarantee they were just normal ol' furniture when they bought them, nothing fancy. Furniture quality has definitely gone downhill. Then again those couches, though likely on the cheaper end back then, would probably be a lot more expensive than our modern low-end in today's dollars. More so if you factor in wage growth. I don't even know where to find a couch that's likely to last 40+ years, now. It'd probably cost $10,000 if I did find it.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#262

Post by esoterica » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #101

chrisco255 wrote: post #26

Renting an apartment vs owning a house is not necessarily a bad financial move. Depends on a number of factors. For instance, if you anticipate moving within a certain time frame, between closing costs, mortgage fees, commission, etc...it can cost more to own in the first 3-5 years, especially if prices are stagnant. Also, there are hidden costs of home ownership not necessarily factored in for, like repairs, mainten…

> Finally, one can use the savings from paying rent What savings? Rent as you stated already includes anticipated maintenance costs, property taxes, the landlord's mortgage costs, often an agency fee, plus a margin for the landlord. I don't think I've seen rental rates ever cheaper than a personal mortgage. The main advantage of renting is avoiding long-term commitment but you'll pay a premium for that flexibility. O…

In very hot housing markets the cost of owning exceeds the cost of renting, because buyers are gambling that prices will keep skyrocketing and they will make up for it in capital gains. If prices fail to increase for some reason (e.g. tech bubble bursts in SF) then buying will cost them hundreds of thousands or millions.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#263

Post by justsomeguy3591 » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #159

nnone wrote: post #154

Capitalist Utopia: Work your whole life, to own nothing. So you will continue to work for us because of the fear of losing everything (we rented to you).

Capitalism can't work without consumers, and consumerism can't work unless you can convince consumers they're better off as a cog in a machine. What capitalism degrades into when this doesn't happen isn't communism but rather mercantilism, or, if there isn't enough economic activity for even that, feudalism. And no one wants that. I didn't realize how this could work until I looked at my own life and realized I would…

> I didn't realize how this could work until I looked at my own life and realized I would rather be an IC than a manager.

Maybe a dumb question, but what is an IC in this context?

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#264

Post by refurb » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

kd5bjo wrote: post #253

refurb wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same holds true for houses. As someone who has been following the SF market closely, an 1100 sq ft house that's worth $1.1M would cost $5,300 in cash flow per month (mortgage, taxes, insurance) plus another $925 in opportunity cost (down payment @ 5%) for a grand total of $6225. And that's not including maintenance costs. The same home could be rented for ~$4500 per month. Keep in mind that most rented houses wer…

Don’t forget that part of that $6225 is paying down principal, which will be recouped when selling or simply disappear from monthly costs after the mortgage is paid off. Also, most ownership costs move less with inflation than rents do, so in 10 years the comparison is $6225 2019 dollars vs $4500 2029 dollars. Also, once you hit 20% ownership, you no longer have to pay mortgage insurance. I haven’t run the numbers la…

which will be recouped when selling

That assumes that you can sell the house for more than what you bought it at.

You are correct that principle may be recouped and in addition, you get a mortgage interest tax deduction. However, you also pay 6% when you sell the place and maintenance costs (~1% per year) need to be accounted for.

There are several assumptions you need to make for owning to be cheaper than renting - that usually involves owning for a longer period of time (>5 years) and some modest appreciation (~3%+).

Of course, my numbers were from the SF market. There are many cities in the US where owning is cheaper than renting from day 1. SF just isn't one of those.

A good place to mention the NYTimes rent versus buy calculator: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-cal...

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#265

Post by esoterica » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

avgDev wrote: post #238

TeMPOraL wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a regular middle-class person, how do you put $1950 in stock to make more than $400 in 5 years risk-free and time/effort-free?

I was under the impression that putting money in stock market is basically gambling and you should be ready to lose that money. Putting money in a property especially if you can do your own upgrades can really pay off. Example, bought a house for $280k,I invested about $50k, its worth about $400k now.

Putting money into real estate is also gambling. Remember 2008?

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#266

Post by someone-knows » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #70

jijji wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can buy all of that on craigslist for ~$700 ... $100 for each bed, $100 (or free) for sofa, $200 for fridge $100 for tv, ac for $50 and dining table for $50.. If you plan on relocating in six months to another city, that might make sense...

I wouldn't buy or accept a free couch or bed from Craigslist. There's the potential for bed bugs. Anything with non-porous surfaces (outdoor furniture) is fine.

I just bought a couch on Craigslist and limited my search to wealthy neighborhoods only. I think I got a great deal.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#267

Post by sct202 » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

jtr1 wrote: post #31

elicash wrote: post #23

This article describes a minor (but real) trend among a small group of wealthy young people. While some of the services described have a bit wider reach (particularly clothing companies), there's nothing THAT concerning about people with lots of disposable income doing what people with disposable income have always done -- spend it.

This has been NYT’s schtick for as long as I’ve been reading it: pick up some trend among the young trust fund class of New York and breathlessly report it as a generational shift. It’s a decent ad-mover.

Lots of people like to hate read things about them.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#268

Post by navigatesol » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #209

abalos wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is similar to a realization I had the other day: for many people collecting things is less about the objects and more about the memories and nostalgia and associated with those objects. I have been having a lot of "identity" problems lately, and it occurred to me that very little of what I own has any substantial story about it nor does it say much about who I am as a person. The objects we collect exist as affi…

I hate seeing all this garbage from Ikea when there are plenty sturdy “antiques” made from hard woods, as opposed to sawdust, glue, and cam locks. I have a some furniture hand made from my great-grandfather, grandfather, and father. I made a nice pair of speakers. This stuff will go to my kids. Much rather buy from the Amish furniture store and pay more, than the disposable shit from Ikea.

>Much rather buy from the Amish furniture store and pay more, than the disposable shit from Ikea.

First of all, the main reason Ikea is so popular is because the stuff is usually packed in small boxes to be assembled, which is easier to move and ship. That's more efficient in shipping logistics and allows for people to live in higher density housing. Have fun moving your hand-made furniture from 100+ years ago down that condominium stairwell.

Second, Ikea has a strong corporate focus on the environment and sustainability:

https://www.ikea.com/ms/en_JP/customer_service/faq/help/abou...

So maybe pause before disparaging a company that's actually trying.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#269

Post by tialaramex » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

mrhektor wrote: post #59

I think the trick is only owning assets that might appreciate in value. I wouldn't want to own a car because the value of cars drops as soon as you take the car out of the lot. But owning a house /apartment might be a good idea if the market is relatively stable and you can actually afford it. It also depends on lifestyle. For a person like me, who moves around a lot, owning furniture for example doesn't make sense.…

The house doesn't appreciate in value. You can tell because they do _make_ houses which don't appreciate in value. They're often called "mobile" homes although in practice moving them is tremendously expensive and they'll most likely be put up in one place and never leave. They don't appreciate because the materials they are made from decay, needing ongoing maintenance or reducing the value.

What actually does appreciate is _real property_ aka land. Because there will only ever be a finite amount of that, and each parcel is in a particular place and can't be moved. If everybody wants to live in Brisbane, or Guernsey, the price of land there explodes because it simply isn't possible.

And even then, appreciation is driven by population. In a world where population stops growing or even shrinks, prices for real property may fall in most places.

Re: Owning nothing is now a luxury, thanks to a number of subscription startups

#270

Post by vinceguidry » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

justsomeguy3591 wrote: post #263

vinceguidry wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism can't work without consumers, and consumerism can't work unless you can convince consumers they're better off as a cog in a machine. What capitalism degrades into when this doesn't happen isn't communism but rather mercantilism, or, if there isn't enough economic activity for even that, feudalism. And no one wants that. I didn't realize how this could work until I looked at my own life and realized I would…

> I didn't realize how this could work until I looked at my own life and realized I would rather be an IC than a manager. Maybe a dumb question, but what is an IC in this context?

Individual contributor. Works great for me because I was never much of a joiner. My faith gets broken too easily.