Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dare say starting out today is easier than it was pre internet boom. Hard to say without a time machine, but from talking to juniors & students (I have a lot of friends who teach) it sounds harder to get that first job than it was when I was starting out (I'm 36). My completely unscientific gut feeling was that it was the easiest to get started in tech in the late 90s & right as the industry started recovering from t…
AT 36, you would of hit the internet explosions about spot on, prior to the PC days with mainframes and `corporate/government ` structure it was not easy at all. Late 90's was the internet boom time and there was a real sudden shortage in skills back then and it was easier. I was taught programming in school (well, actually self taught from magazines like Byte, computer World and Unix World and a ZX81) in the early 8…
New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
411–420 of 451 posts
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#412Earlier quoted context omitted.
Based on your profile it looks like you have a lot of experience, so I would first rely on your experience. That said, there are plenty of resources that have been helpful to me: 1) http://highscalability.com/ 2) http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032175.do 3) https://github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer Hope this helps!
Sweet, thanks! The part I struggle with in interviews is more on playing the game. If someone asks "how would you build a parking lot?" or "how would you design a CI system for a team of 8 developers?", I struggle to keep it simple. Making something usable is actually way easier when working with someone who has thought about what they want and/or are participating. It's like "I don't want a parking lot, you do, so t…
My last three jobs I was hired as the “adult supervision” as either an individual contributor who was more equal than others or as an official dev lead. I was specifically asked by the director those types of questions and how would I rewrite a 20 year old PowerBuilder app that had been maintained by two “developers” who had been their for 20 and 13 years.
I went through the training process they would go through, setting up source control, setting up development, QA environments, automated testing, and CI/CD.
Then he was shocked when I said that I wouldn’t rewrite it from the ground up. I would upgrade to a newer version of PowerBuilder that supported COM, concert the whole app to a COM object, put a C#/WebAPI wrapper around it, write some automated integration reads and contract out some front end developers to put a web interface on it.
Then slowly move the PB logic to C# and keep the stored procedures after upgrading to the latest version of sql server.
Finally move the stored procs to code.
All this to say, that’s what’s wrong with some “senior developers”. They’ve spent their entire career at large companies where they haven’t had a chance to work up and down the entire stack. If you spent your entire career “coding” at a large company, you’re not that much more valuable to most companies than someone with 5 years of experience b
At that job we had to hire some overpriced/clueless “AWS consultants” since I didn’t know AWS at the time. Now I could manage that. I still wouldn’t try doing anything on the front end. There are people much better than me.
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#413A friend of mine specialized in OSX USB drivers and did contract work for OEMS who make products for the Apple Macintosh. He used to work for Apple in the 1990s and did work on Mac System 7.5.4 with the team. He recently killed himself, because he could not find clients and work due to ageism etc. He got sick as well and for a while was homeless. Once he got grey hair they didn't want to hire him anymore. He was 55.
I didn't work on drivers; I worked on mostly higher-level stuff (Newton, HyperCard, Quicktime, AppleScript, and several projects that did not ultimately become products). I worked at Apple from 1988 to 1998, and after that moved on to a successful startup.
In 2004 for I developed an incurable chronic illness. It was one that is hard to diagnose and hard to treat. I eventually found a doctor who could figure out how to handle it, and became able to work again.
Before the illness, I was in that category where I never applied for jobs, because there was always someone bugging me to go to work for them. In fact, my work at Apple was in two chunks because someone bugged me to go to NeXT, then someone bugged me to join a startup, then someone bugged me to go back to Apple. After Apple laid me off in 1998, two startups immediately bugged me to go to work for them and I chose the one that looked better.
After the illness, it has never been like that again. Since 2004, I have mostly been self employed, mainly as a contractor writing code and technical documentation. I choose to live in a place with very low cost of living, so that when I'm working I can stack up piles of cash to live on between gigs. I'm using one of those piles now to work on a product of my own design.
I've contemplated suicide a few times in what I think is a relatively dispassionate way. It was always during fallow periods when my buffer was getting threadbare, and I was in danger of becoming a financial burden to loved ones. I always decided against it because, first, it's irreversible and other choices aren't; and second, because the harm I would do to my loved ones by making that choice probably outweighed the harm I would do by becoming an expense to them.
Although I didn't make your friend's decision, I also don't judge it. I believe I understand in general how it can seem like a reasonable choice in some circumstances.
Since we're talking about ageism, I'll mention that I can't prove that the drastic change in my employability is a case of ageism, nor a case of discrimination against people with chronic illnesses. I suspect it of being both, though, partly because age and health are (not necessarily reliable) proxies for other qualities that employers are legitimately interested in, so I can see what the motivation might be, and partly because the differences between before my illness and since are just so stark and sudden.
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#414Earlier quoted context omitted.
They like paying their mortgage and providing for their families more than coding.
If you live anywhere besides the west coast in a major city and have 7-10 years of experience you can easily make $130K as a senior developer. That puts you right at the 5th quintile of household income. If your spouse is making even $50K that puts you in the top decile. https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ You don’t need to move into middle management to comfortable support a family.
Non-optimal.
Gotta make more, gotta save more, gotta send your children to better school.
And thats just the baseline.
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#415Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. Fairness in the sense of “equal ability to do the job results in the same outcome” would, indeed, get us there. The problem is that interviews don’t actually represent ability to do the job, not in this industry, at least.
They must to a significant degree or businesses would tank. The (open) question is, can we do better?
But, why did we get through? Maybe the process really is capable of separating wheat from the chaff. Maybe the process works 85% of the time, and the 1 time it didn’t work in recent memory is someone who has already left the company. Maybe only capable people self select into the process for some reason. Maybe we’ve been phenomenally lucky.
The point is, just because a filter allows the right people through doesn’t mean it’s necessarily any good.
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#416Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was recently rejected for a job for not having enough “API experience.” I have been a backend engineer for 5 years. Regardless of whatever the hell “API experience” is supposed to be, my entire career has been designing, implementing, and calling APIs.
A recruiter gave me a great piece of advice, to ask the question towards the end of the interview, "is there anything that would cause you to think I'm not quite qualified for the position," this way you can get such concerns out in front and be able to address them while it's still convenient and before they reject you for it.
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#417Earlier quoted context omitted.
They like paying their mortgage and providing for their families more than coding.
If you live anywhere besides the west coast in a major city and have 7-10 years of experience you can easily make $130K as a senior developer. That puts you right at the 5th quintile of household income. If your spouse is making even $50K that puts you in the top decile. https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ You don’t need to move into middle management to comfortable support a family.
Vs just sucking it up and doing your own hacking on the own time. Even if you write code all day at work, you should be doing some at home, because we need to keep up on the latest tech in a risk-tolerant environment (like personal projects that can fail with no loss). Companies can't afford to take on the project risk of leading edge/research level tech.
So hack on the cool stuff at home. Treat your job as a job. There's no principal broken by going into management.
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#418Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why move if you can entice people to move into your back yard with all that money and not have to go anywhere? And, weather doesn’t adequately explain the high CoL anywhere outside California or Hawaii. “It’s where the jobs are, so everyone wants to be there does,” and it also explains California. (Hawaii is special— it’s an archipelago, so, cost of shipping goods plus weather is really the best explanation, given th…
Because there is more money in SV. All else equal financially, as it was in 1960s, CA is better. Now all else is not equal, except that cost of living may have finally caught up so residents are paying what the weather is worth.
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#419Young people have more variable potential. If you hire a young person they might be 100x or 10x or 1x in a couple years. If you hire an old person you already know they aren’t 100x or 10x otherwise they would be above you in the org chart or retired. There’s nothing wrong with 1x, but preference for young people is common sense all else being equal. And it’s never equal in terms of salary expectations and extra effor…
Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It
#420Young people have more variable potential. If you hire a young person they might be 100x or 10x or 1x in a couple years. If you hire an old person you already know they aren’t 100x or 10x otherwise they would be above you in the org chart or retired. There’s nothing wrong with 1x, but preference for young people is common sense all else being equal. And it’s never equal in terms of salary expectations and extra effor…
100x? One person doing the work of 100, is that what that means? I'm jealous of whatever drugs are available in Silicon Valley, because even 10X sounds fantastical to me.