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WeChat and the Surveillance State

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Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#71

Post by pishpash »

dheera wrote: post #70

I absolutely hate WeChat (not necessarily just for the reasons in the article, but many other technical reasons) but I'm forced to use it because all of my friends and my entire social life happens on it. And I live in the Bay Area. If I don't use it I would basically be locking myself up in a prison where I would never see my friends. Even the majority of my friends who work at Facebook and Google use WeChat to orga…

Use it for what it's intended for, chitchatting about nothing of lasting consequence.

If you have genuine thoughts, use something else.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#72

Post by JudgeWapner »

Cypher wrote: post #23
gen3 wrote: post #5

I'm glad this article was written. I think the general public is unaware of how China operates, and through education we can better protect our own civil liberties (and better understand why the China is the way that it is).

I do wonder how long it's going to be before we see WhatsApp and the surveillance state articles.

see, it's different though: Firstly, the data capture is "incidental" - we weren't actively trying to capture the data of $FreeCountry, it just happened as a byproduct of tapping this muti-terabit fiber-optic cable. Secondly, instead of violating citizens' privacy on $FreeCountry soil, the data are routed to $ReallyFarPlace for review and processing by $OtherPeople, not members of $FreeCountry. Because of these frivolous and arbitrary "measures", $ConstitutionalRights are maintained.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#73

Post by colordrops »

idlewords wrote: post #66
colordrops wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://theintercept.com/2018/01/03/my-life-as-a-new-york-ti... https://theintercept.com/2014/09/04/former-l-times-reporter-... http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-cia-and-the-media-50-facts... 2. https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/04/facebook-advocates-go... http://fortune.com/2018/05/17/facebook-atlantic-co…

Please use your words next time, not a random dump of links you found compelling.

I've used my words many times and all that ever happens is that I get shouted down or called a conspiracy theorist, so I decided to lead with evidence directly responding to the OP's points, and then follow with words. Did you not see those?

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#74

Post by theseadroid »

komali2 wrote: post #38

I used to hold a kind of naive hope that the ham fisted Party would eventually be replaced with democracy. I remember back in 2011 my friends that were placed in moderately distinguished positions were sending their kids to Canada to collect foreign dual citizenship, fully expecting the collapse of the PRC in their lifetime. But now I think the Party is too good at maintaining itself. It's augmented by technology lik…

Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs?

As a Chinese who emigrated because of the many social problems of China, I'm not sure switching to democracy right now will be beneficial for regular Chinese. You've all heard stories about how bad mannered Chinese tourists are, but those are still somehow better than the average Chinese I'd say. Think about people who still eat shark fins today, who have no problem buying rhino horns or pangolin skins. (there are more extreme stuff, one example: https://www.animalsasia.org/intl/media/news/news-archive/fiv...). If you ever visited mainland China you probably noticed many public restrooms have no toilet paper. Some places tried to put toilet paper in but people would steal all of them right after.

I am not sure democracy can work with people like that. I fear it wont. I fear not enough educated/informed people will make democratic decisions that are harmful to themselves. I fear a democratic China will become the next Russia, the next Brazil, the next Turkey. At least the current party has done more poverty fighting than most of the third world democratic countries. (data available on world bank website)

Does China have problems? Absolutely. The question is if you really understand what are the problems, before we even start talking if the proposed solutions will work or not.

>Will the PRC just continue to exist as it is, forever? My last remaining hope is for massive power grabs by xi jinping (already happening), followed by government ineptitude as he ages and underlings squabble, followed by chaos upon his death. Beyond that I can't see any way out.

If that happens, is that a good thing? To you, or some Americans who see China as a foe, maybe. I doubt such a chaos is what the average Chinese wants.

P.S. PRC doesn't allow dual citizenship.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#75

Post by jimclegg »

idlewords wrote: post #64
chvid wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think China take will the path to democracy most other democratic nations have taken including my own: As the middle class eventually grows big enough it will demand and get political influence ultimately creating democratic institutions (formal freedom of speech, parliaments, elections, referendums) as we have it in the west. It is easy to focus on a single news story and forgetting that China is a much freer soci…

By no measure is China a freer society today than it was 10 years ago.

>By no measure is China a freer society today than it was 10 years ago.

That's debatable but we know for a fact the USA was freer 10 years ago.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#76

Post by theseadroid »

idlewords wrote: post #64
chvid wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think China take will the path to democracy most other democratic nations have taken including my own: As the middle class eventually grows big enough it will demand and get political influence ultimately creating democratic institutions (formal freedom of speech, parliaments, elections, referendums) as we have it in the west. It is easy to focus on a single news story and forgetting that China is a much freer soci…

By no measure is China a freer society today than it was 10 years ago.

really? source please?

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#77

Post by dheera »

pishpash wrote: post #71
dheera wrote: post #70

I absolutely hate WeChat (not necessarily just for the reasons in the article, but many other technical reasons) but I'm forced to use it because all of my friends and my entire social life happens on it. And I live in the Bay Area. If I don't use it I would basically be locking myself up in a prison where I would never see my friends. Even the majority of my friends who work at Facebook and Google use WeChat to orga…

Use it for what it's intended for, chitchatting about nothing of lasting consequence. If you have genuine thoughts, use something else.

Easy to say, but hard to do when the people who you genuinely value your relationship with don't use anything else. It's also not intended for "chitchatting about nothing of lasting consequence". It's specifically intended to basically be your entire life. In China you can pay all your bills, manage your bank account, buy plane, train tickets, hotel reservations, donate to charities, rent bikes, shop online, order food, and pretty much everything else you would possibly need to do. In the USA, for its active users it basically is all of social life. Potlucks, random dinner parties, hiking trips, wedding invitations, reading groups, badminton court reservations, even ordering gig economy homemade food, it ALL happens on WeChat, right here in Palo Alto, if you are part of the community that uses it.

I do agree though -- avoid using WeChat at all costs for anything secret. I have multiple WeChat accounts and sent a message from one to the other containing a link to one of my own servers. From the server logs, nobody accessed the link. Sent it again with some "interesting" keywords, and lo and behold, the link was accessed by an IP in China.

And "interesting" keywords were nothing of political significance. More business-wise interesting. I have belief that Tencent is spying on certain conversations beyond what government censorship requires them to do.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#78

Post by theseadroid »

chvid wrote: post #53
komali2 wrote: post #38

I used to hold a kind of naive hope that the ham fisted Party would eventually be replaced with democracy. I remember back in 2011 my friends that were placed in moderately distinguished positions were sending their kids to Canada to collect foreign dual citizenship, fully expecting the collapse of the PRC in their lifetime. But now I think the Party is too good at maintaining itself. It's augmented by technology lik…

I think China take will the path to democracy most other democratic nations have taken including my own: As the middle class eventually grows big enough it will demand and get political influence ultimately creating democratic institutions (formal freedom of speech, parliaments, elections, referendums) as we have it in the west. It is easy to focus on a single news story and forgetting that China is a much freer soci…

As a Chinese, I'm inclined to agree with you. One thing above all is the education level of the population has gone up quite a bit. I personally think that's a cornerstone for any future social reforms.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#79

Post by UncleMeat »

ridewinter wrote: post #46
komali2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting - so those values existed well before our modern concept of "the west," in a place we probably wouldn't call "the west" during a period of time when "the west" was very "not open?" For example, during the dark ages, Inquisitions, etc? Why call it "western values?" Why not just specifically refer to the values by name?

They are called “western” values because their current form began with the Enlightenment and scientific revolution in Europe and have stuck around since then. But yes they’ve popped up temporarily in other past cultures like Ancient Greece. If you know of a better name than “western values” let me know.

The enlightenment as a unified event exclusively across Europe is missing a lot. Scholarship is very much identifying more complexity here and the idea that liberal democracy can be assigned to Europe and nowhere else is falling apart.

This is why it is better to use the actual names of the ideas rather than describing them with a questionable provenance.

"Liberal democracy" is a much better term than "Western values".

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#80

Post by komali2 »

theseadroid wrote: post #74
komali2 wrote: post #38

I used to hold a kind of naive hope that the ham fisted Party would eventually be replaced with democracy. I remember back in 2011 my friends that were placed in moderately distinguished positions were sending their kids to Canada to collect foreign dual citizenship, fully expecting the collapse of the PRC in their lifetime. But now I think the Party is too good at maintaining itself. It's augmented by technology lik…

Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As a Chinese who emigrated because of the many social problems of China, I'm not sure switching to democracy right now will be beneficial for regular Chinese. You've all heard stories about how bad mannered Chinese tourist…

I hear you and understand you, but your argument is essentially nullified by the existence of Taiwan.

We have proof positive that the Chinese culture is not only compatible with democracy, it flourishes beneath it.

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