Earlier quoted context omitted.
If he was a pastor, he probably believed in an afterlife, hoping to be together with Sarah again? I also remember the story of a guy killing his family after a divorce, hoping to be together with his children again in the afterlife. Lies can kill...
> If he was a pastor, he probably believed in an afterlife, hoping to be together with Sarah again? Only if he thought she was in hell. A pastor would know that you can't commit suicide and enter heaven.
The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
121–130 of 131 posts
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have to explain why you object or I can't respond properly. But I think you're saying a week isn't enough to determine things for sure? If so, you need to read what I said more closely. I said a week is a basic filter , that can figure out an urge is temporary most of the time. It won't tell you an urge is not-temporary. It either says "temporary" or "unsure".
OK that wasn't clear. But then it also doesn't seem useful for the goal to determine if somebody is permanently serious and should be left alone to their suicide. But I don't think I agree with that approach, anyway.
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#123This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation. I have been suicidally depressed, institutionalized. I'm better now. I suppose if I actually attempted to kill myself, but fa…
> This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation. I think you'll find that ISIS executioners believe that they are doing the right thing.
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#124This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation. I have been suicidally depressed, institutionalized. I'm better now. I suppose if I actually attempted to kill myself, but fa…
>This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation. I feel the same about people lobbying against assisted suicide. I have no other word for people who willfully condemn people…
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#125This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation. I have been suicidally depressed, institutionalized. I'm better now. I suppose if I actually attempted to kill myself, but fa…
Are you saying force-feeding people who don't want to be fed is ethical? I believe it's taught to be against medical ethics basically everywhere. This girl had been confined against her will already for 6 years. How many years of force-feeding would you have her endure as well? Go look up how force-feeding is done, I believe the summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture contained some descrip…
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
>This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation. I feel the same about people lobbying against assisted suicide. I have no other word for people who willfully condemn people…
You don't consider it arrogance to believe you know for sure how that girls life would have developed?
Also to take her as an example, instead of terminal patients you also would be willing to deny assisted suicide, in her case it would have been directly inflicted torture to keep her alive via force feeding.
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
If he was a pastor, he probably believed in an afterlife, hoping to be together with Sarah again? I also remember the story of a guy killing his family after a divorce, hoping to be together with his children again in the afterlife. Lies can kill...
> If he was a pastor, he probably believed in an afterlife, hoping to be together with Sarah again? Only if he thought she was in hell. A pastor would know that you can't commit suicide and enter heaven.
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
And what does Camus say you should do when your freedom is curtailed in unacceptable ways? (Note: way beyond social contract.)
Like being forced by the gods to do nothing but repeatedly push a boulder up a mountain for all of eternity? The Myth of Sisyphus is the name of Camus’ book about suicide, and Sisyphus’ plight is its central metaphor.
- The universe has no innate meaning, and if causality exists (which is still an honest debate in metaphysics) it is unknowable to us. Camus calls this condition the Absurd.
- In an absurd world, our choice is limited. We can make decisions with an outcome in mind, but that outcome is by no means guaranteed.
- Ultimately, a person’s purpose in life is created by the individual as a means of escaping existential despair (which Sartre calls ennui) as a response to an absurd world.
- But within this purpose, there are always choices. Sisyphus has limited choices in his situation: his purpose in life (or afterlife in this case) is to roll the boulder up the hill for eternity. He is free to choose not to roll the rock up the hill — but this would invalidate his purpose.
- If Sisyphus chooses to not role the rock up the hill, it is akin to suicide in that he has given up his purpose. If humans have any purpose in life (which isn’t certain in the case of a deterministic model of causality), it is to define our own purpose in life. This isn’t a choice we can avoid, and the meaning we assign to life ceases to have meaning as soon as we die.
Existentialism is an intensely personal philosophy. It makes no assumptions about other people or societies writ large; only that people are free act in accordance with their chosen (and some would say arbitrary) purpose. It was a reaction of Camus and Sartre’s experiences in Nazi-occupied France — a situation where choices were extremely curtailed, but required the individual to make them nonetheless.
TLDR: there is always hope, even in an absurd world. The world is largely arbitrary and meaningless, so your choices only matter insofar as they define your existence. Or as I like to define it, when you stare into the void of nihilism you see only your own reflection.
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm sorry, what on earth is "indirect assistance" to someone refusing to eat? Making them comfortable. Taking care of other needs (washing, teeth, ...). Some level of pain medication. General support. > It's true that sometimes courts will allow doctor's to force-feed patients through an IV Which did happen in this case by the way (with a stomach probe not with an IV). For years. Including months spent by this girl…
All of which are excellent moral questions and absolutely worth debating without senselessly and incorrectly accusing the Dutch (I wrote Danish above, sorry) government of euthanizing teenagers. If you want to talk about care, talk about care. Medical ethics is a hard problem.
There is a very good basis in this case to accuse the Dutch government, more specifically the Dutch youth care system, even of murdering this girl. By torturing her for years, at times for self-serving reasons, until she took her own life.
Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t
#130“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…
If your happy but very drunk friend wanted to tapdance on the edge of a tall building, would you restrain them if necessary? Or if someone high on shrooms was trying to drink bleach? A suicidal mind is often one caught in the temporary throes of delusion and irrationality, even if it comes from internal wiring going haywire instead of external substances. Preventing someone from killing themselves is in their best in…
The examples you give are in the order of hours. Fair enough.
What if someone is in this state of despair for a week? A month? A year? Ten years? When do you draw the line of temporary?