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The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

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11–20 of 131 posts

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#11
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”

- David Foster Wallace

The essence of Liberty is the ownership of one's own life. You owe it to no one - not even a hypothetical Future Self - to stay alive at all costs. Just as all humans have the right to live with dignity and without pain, we have the right to die in the same manner. I hope that's acknowledged one day.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#12
There are many things to talk about here, but this is part of why I posted this to Hacker News:

The deeply shocking story on such a controversial issue was irresistible, and became a top news item all over the world overnight. Pothoven’s name was soon trending on Twitter in Italy. News reports repeating the false claims were published from Australia to India to the United States.

Yes, the article touches on many things, many of which are hot button topics. But the actual title of this piece is really about how the story was misreported in many countries due to it's controversial nature. It was click bait to the max.

I posted a long comment earlier and deleted it. I'm quite open about my history of attempted suicide, having been sexually assaulted, etc.

I think it is possible to heal. I don't know that I know how to really talk about that. I do know that the widespread meme that such things are simply unfixable is part of the problem.

There doesn't seem to be any good way to talk about that either. So I'm going to stop here.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#13

Not euthanasia, but how would you call it ? I mean sure, was she given a lethal injection in a clinic ? Well, no. Is this not euthanasia ? Why the hell not ? 1) the girl is in fact dead 2) because she wanted to die (after being locked up in youth services for years, including months in an isolation cell) 3) the "original event" is that she was ("probably") raped at school. Repeatedly. She has never divulged what actu…

I believe the technical term is "manslaughter".

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#14

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

If your happy but very drunk friend wanted to tapdance on the edge of a tall building, would you restrain them if necessary? Or if someone high on shrooms was trying to drink bleach?

A suicidal mind is often one caught in the temporary throes of delusion and irrationality, even if it comes from internal wiring going haywire instead of external substances.

Preventing someone from killing themselves is in their best interest most of the time for that reason. Suicidal impulses are most often fleeting relative to normal lifespan.

My wife tried to kill herself a few times when we were younger - I wrestled knives from her hands and had to get a safe for pills (which she agreed to in her better states). With therapy and medicine, she is very, very happy to be alive now.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#15

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

You owe it to your family and friends to face your troubles and not take a cowards path. We're all in this together and we should try to stick together.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#16
This story kinda reminded me about Mark Rife:

> “Last Thursday, a guy I went to college with, Mark Rife, committed suicide. As I understand the story, three years ago his wife Sarah died due to complications from a fall off a 75 foot waterfall. She fell; he dove in after her. Against all odds, they thought she had recovered. Life had returned to some degree of normal; but then six months later, she died in her sleep. Mark was devastated.

> In a video he left behind, Mark describes leaving Sarah’s funeral, driving who knows where and simply wanting to die — but he remembered the time they watched the film Juliet and Her Romeo, a film he loved, and he remembered Sarah’s question: “Do you think Romeo would have still killed himself if he’d waited 1,000 days?”

> So, Mark went on a 1,000 day odyssey, with funds from Sarah’s life insurance policy, to give him time to see if his choice would still be the same. Would he still want to kill himself? Mark traveled, explored, met knew people. He says he “followed every impulse.” Mark had been a pastor in Hawaii, and he left his life behind.”

> Long story short, after 1000 days of living and exploring 22 countries around the world, Mark Rife decided that he DID want to kill himself. He didn’t want to live in a world without Sarah and he was out.

http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/the-1000-days-of-mark

Mark blogged every step of his 1000 days of travelling and seeking happiness. Tumblr deleted his blog the day he killed himself. To their credit, Vimeo left his video up https://vimeo.com/27856790

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#17

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

You owe it to your family and friends to face your troubles and not take a cowards path. We're all in this together and we should try to stick together.

I have had to retype this comment many times to restrain myself...calling people who cannot endure "cowards" is shameful and I wish you could see how wrong it is. Yes we should try to stick together and that is a huge part of the problem, but not the fault of the people who cannot survive. They aren't just bailing because they are lazy or have nothing better to do or are not "sticking with society" in some strange obligation, rather because they suffer pain you cannot comprehend, because if you could then you would never demean them in such a way.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#18

Not euthanasia, but how would you call it ? I mean sure, was she given a lethal injection in a clinic ? Well, no. Is this not euthanasia ? Why the hell not ? 1) the girl is in fact dead 2) because she wanted to die (after being locked up in youth services for years, including months in an isolation cell) 3) the "original event" is that she was ("probably") raped at school. Repeatedly. She has never divulged what actu…

Based on your description, I'd call it "murder", though I suspect a lawyer would have more techinical terminology - and probably also bad news related to bullshit waivers and/or the Dutch legislature.

Phrases like "tortured to death" are somewhat excessive, but mainly because it sounds more like gross incompetence and depraved indifference than active malice.

I haven't bothered investigating enough to have a opinion on whether your description is accurate though.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#19
post #14

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

If your happy but very drunk friend wanted to tapdance on the edge of a tall building, would you restrain them if necessary? Or if someone high on shrooms was trying to drink bleach? A suicidal mind is often one caught in the temporary throes of delusion and irrationality, even if it comes from internal wiring going haywire instead of external substances. Preventing someone from killing themselves is in their best in…

There are many people for whom life is a living hell with no hope of escape other than to end it. Insisting they live amounts to serving as their warden and torturer.

If it isn't someone you are personally willing to take some responsibility for, as you did with your wife, then I think it is wrong to insist they live.

I'm quite open about my long history of being suicidal and the various underlying reasons why. People on the internet often want to tell me "chin up, tally ho, here's a suicide hotline number." They generally don't want to do anything whatsoever to help with any of the actual underlying problems.

In fact, they usually make me feel like they are merely using me as their "good deed for the day" to make themselves feel like good people. It generally pisses me off and makes me feel crapped all over.

I'm pro right to die, but this article casts light on how very complicated the issue is. I would be horrified to learn that "I got raped and now want to die" is some new standard for helping women kill themselves. I just can't even begin to come up with the words for how mixed my feelings are about this girl's story.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#20
post #14

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

If your happy but very drunk friend wanted to tapdance on the edge of a tall building, would you restrain them if necessary? Or if someone high on shrooms was trying to drink bleach? A suicidal mind is often one caught in the temporary throes of delusion and irrationality, even if it comes from internal wiring going haywire instead of external substances. Preventing someone from killing themselves is in their best in…

Part of personal agency is being free enough to opt out of rationality. It isn’t the purview of second parties to assume what we may or may not want in the future.

If I sign a DNR, it isn’t the place of anyone else to say “but he didn’t mean it like that”. Same for (what are assumed by observers to be temporary) suicidal ideations.

This strikes at the very core of personal autonomy.

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