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Momentum is building to explore Venus

nature.com

131–140 of 179 posts

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most methods of flying things through Earth's lower atmosphere should apply well to Venus at 50 km: balloons, planes, helicopters, etc. To gather energy for rotors, maybe we could siphon heat from below to power a generator or other type of converter. Just playing with ideas. :-)

Send your mining robot below. It cools itself with phase change liquids, but also opens high pressure tanks to the 90 bar atmosphere. When you hoist it back, just plug those pressure tanks in to turbines connected to generators. That wouldn't be a huge amount of power, but maybe wildcat prospectors could operate like that in the early days.

Lisa, in this house we respect the laws of thermodynamics!

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Soviet Union always put more attention on Venus, and the US more on Mars. From what I can tell this dates back to before there were actual space programs, so I strongly suspect this has to do with the science fiction in the respective languages. For example in H.G. Wells 1898 War of the Worlds, the bad guys are from Mars, Edgar Rice Burroghs John Carter series is about Mars, etc. whereas engineer cosmonaut Konsta…

i think the primary reason for US interest in mars is due to the fact that it is much more likely that mars #1) previously contained life and #2) we will be able to find evidence of #1 on mars, vs venus.

On the other hand, NASA’s (recent!) insistence that everything be justified in terms of the search for life is not shared by everybody.

I for example really don’t care at all about potential microbial life vs. extending the domain of earth’s life through permanent settlement and terraformation of both Mars and Venus.

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#133
post #63

I'm glad Venus is getting more attention. Mars seems to get the most attention as a place to visit, but we seem to ignore Venus. Venus has a few things going for it that I think make it a better choice for permanent human habitation than Mars. * Venus has nearly Earth-like gravity (8.9 m/s² instead of 9.8 m/s²) * The atmosphere 50 km above the surface is the right temperature for liquid water, and has a similar atmos…

well you said it: we know exactly how to heat up mars (greenhouse gases) but its not so clear how to cool down venus. also mars has water.

We do know how to cool Venus. Build a sun shade. It’s an old idea, and a simple idea, and there’s lots of engineering literature on how it can be reasonably accomplished.

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say we know exactly how to heat up Mars. Without a magnetic field, any atmosphere we conjure out of the polar regions would escape into space. We are far, far closer to completely reversing the effects of climate change on Earth than we are to teraforming Mars.

Yeah, but I believe it takes ~10 million years for a Mars atmosphere to escape. So it could be entirely feasible to treat the Mars atmosphere as a tire, that you "inflate" every now and then to keep the pressure constant.

That would be a very wasteful use of precious volatiles though.

But we could kick up a magnetic field with superconducting rings around the poles though.

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#135
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well you said it: we know exactly how to heat up mars (greenhouse gases) but its not so clear how to cool down venus. also mars has water.

We don't need to cool it down. We could float a platform about 49.5 km above the surface of Venus, where the temperature and pressure nearly match the earth at sea level. To launch a probe, we could simply drop it from the platform. This article about Venus is very enlightening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus

Very cool NASA video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0az7DEwG68A

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send your mining robot below. It cools itself with phase change liquids, but also opens high pressure tanks to the 90 bar atmosphere. When you hoist it back, just plug those pressure tanks in to turbines connected to generators. That wouldn't be a huge amount of power, but maybe wildcat prospectors could operate like that in the early days.

Lisa, in this house we respect the laws of thermodynamics!

Why not use liquid oxygen as the phase change liquid? Then the gas could be caught in a bladder tethered to the ground. When it comes time to ascend, use it as a balloon?

There must be some way to exploit the temperature difference between the surface and 50km up, without mega-engineering.

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most methods of flying things through Earth's lower atmosphere should apply well to Venus at 50 km: balloons, planes, helicopters, etc. To gather energy for rotors, maybe we could siphon heat from below to power a generator or other type of converter. Just playing with ideas. :-)

Send your mining robot below. It cools itself with phase change liquids, but also opens high pressure tanks to the 90 bar atmosphere. When you hoist it back, just plug those pressure tanks in to turbines connected to generators. That wouldn't be a huge amount of power, but maybe wildcat prospectors could operate like that in the early days.

Hmm, maybe some variant of a solar updraft tower where hot lower atmosphere gases are siphoned up to generate power and heat lifting balloons?

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think upper atmosphere study would be great. There are some colony designs that suggest an oxygen filled colony would float at earth pressure. And with the sulfuric acid and co2 you have everything you need to make water air and fuel. Not to mention protection from asteroids and deadly rays. It would be a challenge but all of the planets and other bodies present their own challenges.

At the same ambient pressure, an O2 would float, but just barely. It wouldn't float like a hydrogen/helium balloon does on earth. If the pressure is the same on either side of the balloon, lift comes from different atomic weights of the gasses. Helium weights much less than air. But the O2 inside the Venus habitat doesn't weigh all that much less than the CO2 outside. As a practical matter, you would probably need li…

Well not everything would need to float at earth pressure. The production of any fuels or materials that required heavier equipment could be done at lower atmosphere. You could engineer bacteria to break down sulfuric acid for the hydrogen based fuels, obviously the CO2 to O2 part would be easy, or bacteria to produce certain materials. Also I wasn't talking about methane fuel which would need nuclear I was thinking more basic hydrogen rockets which chemical reactions could be simple and effective enough to produce. Additionally solar is already getting thinner and lighter so I don't think that would be much of a problem. And remember on Venus it's not just CO2 it's very dense and high pressure as well. So earth atmospheric pressure air could lift quite a bit and you don't need to be at exactly sea level pressure all the time. Only real problem I see other than the constant threat of death that all colonies will face is launching to and from any floating colonies.

As for the large blimp colonies, I see nothing wrong with that. Sure they'll be big but not any more difficult than building reinforced lava tube colonies on the moon or going to Mars with building sized 3d printers or excavators that can be used to make long term shelters. Like I said all of the planets are going to have tough problems, short of an earth like planet you aren't going to find an ideal easy scenario. Personaly giant airships housing 50 or so people doesn't seem too bad. Like I said though it's the landing and taking off that seems a bit trickier.

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#139

I'm glad Venus is getting more attention. Mars seems to get the most attention as a place to visit, but we seem to ignore Venus. Venus has a few things going for it that I think make it a better choice for permanent human habitation than Mars. * Venus has nearly Earth-like gravity (8.9 m/s² instead of 9.8 m/s²) * The atmosphere 50 km above the surface is the right temperature for liquid water, and has a similar atmos…

Venus is closer to Earth.

Re: Momentum is building to explore Venus

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but I believe it takes ~10 million years for a Mars atmosphere to escape. So it could be entirely feasible to treat the Mars atmosphere as a tire, that you "inflate" every now and then to keep the pressure constant.

That would be a very wasteful use of precious volatiles though. But we could kick up a magnetic field with superconducting rings around the poles though.

Losing 0.00001% per year is not "very wasteful" to me.

There are ideas for putting up a magnetic field based on putting a contraption in whichever L1/L2... point is between Mars and the Sun.

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