Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems • Hacker News Board

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#151

Post by imgabe » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 1:50 AM UTC

yepguy wrote: post #21

To fight this, I don't think we should be talking about privacy or rights. That's all very important, but society is already fairly desensitized to that language, and the pro-surveillance side can literally point to the dead bodies of real children. Instead, we should be talking about how deleterious it is to the character development of our children. Among other problems, they are being demanded to conform to an inc…

The issue is that this indoctrinates children into living in a totalitarian state. If you never have any freedom as a child, how will you know it's missing as an adult?

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#152

Post by protomyth » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 1:51 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #72

notathingreally wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they're posting publicly, then they're posting publicly. Privacy isn't a thing. But in many cases they weren't. That article talks about taking personal photos off of a student's personal device just because they connected it to a school computer for a short time. It included things like nude photos. Now the school has committed child pornography by copying these photos from the student's device. I don't see how…

> Now the school has committed child pornography by copying these photos from the student's device... This is where the law gets kids in way more trouble than is really necessary. There's a little known provision in most child porn laws that exempts people reporting child porn from charges. But think about it, to get that protection, you must report. So they surreptitiously lift the pics from a kid's phone, and then…

To be fair, I think most police chiefs may have an actual obligation to let prosecutors know about it?

There are groups of people that have a “must report” obligation listed in the law. I cannot remember if it’s state or federal law.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#153

Post by Avamander » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 1:56 AM UTC

0815test wrote: post #134

kevin_b_er wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a highly sexist view. Girls are just as merciless, often moreso, but will often stick more to psychological abuse. You can ignore this bullying all you want, but it is the new tactic for a few decades now. The bully doesn't have to touch their target. They just need to psychologically abuse them until they get a physical reaction out of their target. Then zero tolerance comes in and the target is punished. Th…

You can teach your kid to resist psychological abuse. Physical abuse is more challenging - often the only real option is to push back in self-defense, which can be quite problematic.

Resisting mental violence doesn't work. It seeps trough defenses. Kind-of like "Don't think about a Pink Elephant".

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#154

Post by spaginal » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 1:56 AM UTC

dmitrygr wrote: post #129

spaginal wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think zero tolerance on both parties plays a large part into this. I was mercilessly bullied in elementary school until I attacked my bully at recess in 6th grade. I’m almost 40 now and it still stands out as a pivotal moment in my growth into an adult. That one action stopped the behavior for good and I wasn’t severely punished for it. It also settled down the kid who bullied me. I know now that schools can punish…

Parents can probably help here. School is unlikely to punish the bullied for self-defense if a parent threatens a VERY PUBLIC VERY EXPENSIVE LAWSUIT for his kid being punished for self-defense. Actual lawsuit not needed, the treat will likely be enough. If our legal system provides for self-defense, schools should fall in line. Yes, I know that enforcing this and finding out who hit whom first is hard, well, nobody s…

I don’t think it needs to get there.

Schools need to back off the punishment and let the children sort it out and keep eyes on them afterwards. If it continues after the altercation, step in to help mediate, but otherwise we need to be teaching children healthy and constructive conflict resolution so it carries into their adulthood.

Like I said, sometimes this may involve a physical confrontation, but for two children this is healthy in my opinion. I’ve never touched a human being in that manner since, and neither has the person who bullied me, but that fight resolved a littany of issues for both of us.

I understand this isn’t always the case that it can resolve as cleanly, but the way we handle it now with children is plain awful and a disservice to them. Zero tolerance creates an extremely unsafe environment for them. Take it case by case, let them resolve it, help them move on.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#155

Post by Avamander » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 2:01 AM UTC

dqpb wrote: post #47

This should be fairly easy to DOS

Only if you aren't afraid of the ridiculous consequences.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#156

Post by atoav » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 2:02 AM UTC

Teach them early that we don’t live in free societies any more. How else would you go about building tomorrow’s distopia?

We actually need the opposite: we need schools that create educated, crtically thinking individuals that don’t hessitate to work together for thw future.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#157

Post by panzagl » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 2:03 AM UTC

esaym wrote: post #119

panzagl wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, nobody who is an educator would ever say such a thing. But as the spouse of one you can only hear so many stories of behavior before you start asking what the other students were learning while one kid goes on a 15 minute meltdown. But it's really dangerous where that thinking leads- so much of school performance/behavior is tied to family situations that it can go to some dark places if you replace the comp…

>but unfortunately for society as a whole it's a step in the wrong direction. It makes the quality of your education wholly dependent on your parents, which pretty much just accelerates the cycle. I'm still trying to figure out why everyone is against homeschooling. Everyone is negative, and if any reason it is given it is of the "won't get socialized correctly" type. But you mention "cycle". What cycle? The cycle I…

For an individual family homeschooling may make sense, assuming they really are committed to it. The socialization issues are minor, and I agree that keeping them away from the 'bad' element is a huge plus.

But for society as a whole, it's better that the lower performers be exposed to a larger world than their dysfunctional situation. The odds are against them, but many are exposed to enough to improve their situation. That's the theory, anyway, and as someone raised on Egalitarian principles it seems to me the only way for a free society to function. But that seems to have fallen by the wayside in favor of lower taxes and an I've got mine mentality.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#158

Post by Avamander » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 2:04 AM UTC

I think this is just a strategy for moving the Overton window.

"Look what we can do! Instead we opted in for this [vendor] MITM proxy and cameras in each classroom that snoop on your kids' activities! Much less invasive ;)"

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#159

Post by Gibbon1 » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 2:06 AM UTC

jakeogh wrote: post #146

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These people consider that kind of stuff perfectly acceptable because they have a world view in which living in totalitarian society is acceptable. Except they don't. The moment the totalitarian society started to demand conformance to something they don't like, you can be sure they would object.

They move the goalposts to the new normal, see "problems" still happening and apply the same solution iteratively to absurdim.

When organizations spend money on a 'tool' they will find a justification for it's existence.

30 years ago the city I lived in bought a helicopter for the police. So they could 'spot criminals from the air'. They actually appear to use it mostly to look for teenagers hanging out in parks after hours.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#160

Post by astazangasta » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 2:14 AM UTC

TheOperator wrote: post #125

elliekelly wrote: post #54

> Evergreen Public Schools in Washington state, for example, started using the company's service this school year. Between September and mid-March, the system flagged more than 9,000 incidents in the 26,000-student district. The overwhelming majority-84 percent-were for minor violations, such as profanity. The fact that the system even monitors for profanity at all tells me its purpose has a lot more to do with stude…

I don't nessecarily have an issue with surveillance systems as they act as force multipliers for all sorts of noble causes. Surveillance systems should strictly be used for physical safety, anti-vandalism, and loss prevention purposes. You're not preparing kids to succeed by micromanaging them from behind a series of monitors. At all. People who intend to use the system to punish the kids for swearing by no means sho…

Every surveillance system will be used to persecute innocent people who the surveillers do not like. Moreover, it has long been argued that surveillance itself is a form of persecution. See Bentham, Foucault etc.