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The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

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Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#651

Post by hrktb »

paganel wrote: post #644

> Especially now that Uber has a STFU option I never understood why people are so against talking to the people that give them a ride. I once was in a very rough spot in my life and talking with taxi-drivers almost daily about the most trivial stuff (weather, politics, traffic) used to give me a very healthy reprieve from the black thoughts I used to have.

Ideally that’s a two way street, with driver that really want to talk to clients not accepting silent drives and vice versa.

Otherwise, just as talking to people seem to have helped you a lot, for other people not having to talk is also a godsend. I think it’s fine to not understand everyone’s motives or functionning, as long as their needs are met somehow.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#652

Post by oneshot908 »

I relocated out of the bay area in 2016-2017 and it was the happiest year of my adult life. I think Silicon Valley has a zero sum culture and having returned here for personal reasons but otherwise against my best judgment, I cannot wait to GTFO for keeps.

I am really really good (perhaps top 10 or so worldwide) at one thing, and pretty good at a couple other things. If I didn't have that, I think I would feel utterly worthless in 2019. If I extrapolate to most of America, wow, I get why they elected who they elected.

Something has gone very wrong here. And I am stymied as to how to fix it because neither political party, which gets to set the agenda every 4 years, seems to grasp what has gone wrong.

But when I travel abroad, I am happy. I see can-do cultures that have far less than western nations, but are so inspiringly optimistic to do more, that I don't want to come back to America. I want to set down roots and help them knock it out of the park. And I am getting close to doing exactly that. Doing so would shatter my personal life, but I suspect if 2020 continues what we started in 2016, I will follow through on what my inner voice is telling me to do.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#653

Post by kevinofe »

DisruptiveDave wrote: post #566
40acres wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard someone describe this as the "capstone" vs "conerstone" model. Previous generations got married and had kids much earlier, and built their lives off of that cornerstone. When it comes to me personally and my peers, we see marriage and children more as a capstone -- something to be done once our student loan is paid, or when we're ready to put a down payment on a house, when we get that promotion, etc.

Got married at 38, first kid coming at 40. Had nothing to do with debts and all that other stuff; I chose to live out my wild years to full satisfaction and natural completion.

First and only kid at 41 for me, no looking back. Keep disrupting, dad!

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#654

Post by simmanian »

paganel wrote: post #644

> Especially now that Uber has a STFU option I never understood why people are so against talking to the people that give them a ride. I once was in a very rough spot in my life and talking with taxi-drivers almost daily about the most trivial stuff (weather, politics, traffic) used to give me a very healthy reprieve from the black thoughts I used to have.

Being silent in the absence of anything noteworthy to talk about is exactly the healthy reprieve some people are looking for. I personally find it absolutely taxing to talk about the weather or the traffic because I just don't enjoy talking for the sake of talking and I shouldn't be pressured to meet an arbitrary social expectation I have no interest in.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#655

Post by graycat »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #637
Damorian wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Art of Loving was positively one of the worst books I have ever read. He was an unmarried, childless Atheist that wrote a book about love. As a religious, married man with children, his ideas on loving God, a spouse, and your children are almost completely wrong. It was like reading Ayn Rand, "true statement, true statement, true statement, completely illogical and nonsensical conclusion, unsupported by prior sta…

I'm not arguing against you at all in regards to your conclusion about the book (I haven't read it, and the previous poster has me concerned), but I'm a bit confused about the atheist bit here - do you take exception to their understanding of love, or just loving god?

As I posted in

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20119491

the start is a person who feels anxiety from their realization that alone they are vulnerable to the hostile forces of nature and society. "Alone" is essentially as in this thread. Then how to respond? From Fromm, love of god is one possible response -- some people suppress a lot anxiety that way and, maybe, have some forms of bonding that can help them in practical ways. Another response is love of spouse -- that's what's central in this thread. A third response is to join a group, that might tribal in some sense, political, religious, etc. -- but being in the group can help do something, hopefully productive, about the aloneness, vulnerability, and anxiety.

A biggie point is Fromm's explanation of love of spouse as a response to the anxiety and not much like the pop culture version of love. To be blunt, porn is Fromm's (iv) and misses all of the benefits of his (i) to (iii). What they do in the porn shots is useless -- the actors don't even pay attention to each other, no kissing, bonding. It does nothing good and, of course, can do harm.

Fromm's book is short. Get some views of some of the clinical psychology or marriage counseling communities. Then, since the book is so short, just read the thing.

I'm just passing along what I learned paying full tuition, trying desperately to save the life of my wife, which I failed to do. Don't take my advice -- ask others as I suggested. Then, did I mention, the book is short? Again, did I mention that won't find Fromm's ideas in pop culture.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#656

Post by aspenmayer »

beat wrote: post #626
blfr wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, too, can strike up a conversation with a total stranger at a bus station and it doesn't have to feel weird. It is, however, likely to be short because people are so unused to it in the atomized west that, if you don't carry the whole conversation, they simply won't know what to say.

Last night, I said something to my spouse about a conversation I had with a "single serving friend", and she didn't know what I was talking about. I said it was a Fight Club reference, then went farther and explained that I had a five minute conversation with a complete stranger (just walking down the street together), and I had to explain this idea to her, because she's an introvert and would never, ever engage in a…

How do you come to meet someone who seemingly doesn't have any way of meeting or interacting with others they aren't already acquainted with? How do you come to marry someone before you have this conversation to discover their lived experience of social interactions is so radically different to your own? No judgment, just a strange backstory that seems to raise more questions than it answers.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#657

Post by britch »

irrational wrote: post #374

Is it just the family, or is it also community institutions? I'm thinking specifically about the decline in church attendance. Regardless of your beliefs, church congregations (not mega-churches, but small congregations of at most a few hundred) provided a built-in community that could provide support, companionship, activities, etc. So far I haven't seen anything that really replicates all those communities had to o…

I agree, the article puts really heavy emphasis on the nuclear family which I find questionable.

Long term cohabitation is dismissed because it is not marriage.

The idea that historically people (especially women) where UNHAPPILY stuck together because of societal norms is dismissed.

Attributing the cause of the decline of marriage and all the negative effects to the pill strikes me a especially strange. The alternative of forcing people into a family they didn't want because of an unexpected pregnancy doesn't seem better for people's mental well-being.

While they are brought up, the article seems to downplay the decline of the community institutions like the church as you mention. It also seems to downplay economic forces like 24 hour work culture and stagnating wages.

I think there's some truth and good ideas in the article, but I find some of the choices strange.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#658

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #2

I felt loneliness acutely this week. I live alone, spend most evenings alone, and on top, work's coding and research has been slow for 2 weeks. Collaborators are at conferences and on vacation, so I had much less work and much less face-to-face contact than usual. Given that I code on my own, distribute analyses via email, and occasionally meet if people are around, I barely talked to people some days this week. Goin…

I felt very similar but at the age of 20 I shut myself indoors and it's been like that ever since. Everyone has long forgot about me. I turned 31 an hour ago.

I think I just got used to it. I was lucky that I inherented a small flat, although in bad condition and location. I score some freelance gigs time to time to keep myself alive. I have tried online communities or friends so to speak but I don't really get it how it's done. I didn't have a problem in real life.

I read HN always every night before I fall asleep. In 2008 or so my show HN made it to first page. I was very happy that say. Genuine happiness. I might have lacked being a human now.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#659

Post by parenthesis »

SiVal wrote: post #604
blfr wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, too, can strike up a conversation with a total stranger at a bus station and it doesn't have to feel weird. It is, however, likely to be short because people are so unused to it in the atomized west that, if you don't carry the whole conversation, they simply won't know what to say.

In much of "flyover country", Americans routinely greet, chat with, and interact with strangers in public. Ironically, it's one of the American traits often criticized by Europeans. "How rude, how intrusive, to invade my private bubble." But then, the UK has a similar phenomenon, with sophisticated Londoners making the same complaints about England's own flyover country, "the North" [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/wa…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Nice_Up_North

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#660

Post by bob33212 »

DisruptiveDave wrote: post #566
40acres wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard someone describe this as the "capstone" vs "conerstone" model. Previous generations got married and had kids much earlier, and built their lives off of that cornerstone. When it comes to me personally and my peers, we see marriage and children more as a capstone -- something to be done once our student loan is paid, or when we're ready to put a down payment on a house, when we get that promotion, etc.

Got married at 38, first kid coming at 40. Had nothing to do with debts and all that other stuff; I chose to live out my wild years to full satisfaction and natural completion.

Full completion sounds sexual. Was that intentional?
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