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The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

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621–630 of 1001 posts

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#621

Man, the older I get the more I realize that life is always a balancing act. I immigrated from a 3rd world country (probably a 2nd world now) 20 years ago with my parents. Both of my parents were engineers and both were paid about once a year by their employer because nobody had any money. So we were broke and poor my entire childhood. And yet we always had friends visiting us. There were always celebrations. Seemed…

> i'd give up everything i have now to simply enjoy humanity for a change.

Everything but security which, unfortunately, is worth giving up a lot of other things to have.

I'd move to my wife's home country tomorrow if we could live without fear of our child being kidnapped. My wife's uncle was kidnapped and murdered, another aunt and cousins bound in their home by robbers, and another cousin held for a day by a group of illegally armed militiamen from a neighboring country.

Other than that it's paradise!

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#622
I don't think the decline of the family is the primary issue today. My own perspective is that the "epidemic of loneliness" has more to do with the prevalance of, and addiction to, social media in its various forms.

It is easier than ever to form and maintain all your relationships, acquaintences, friends, and family, online via social media. You can see what people are up to, even "participate" to some degree via commentary/messaging, and it leaves people feeling like they've done their part in keeping the relationship alive. My observation is that because relationships kept this way are increasingly normalized, people are less interested in getting together in the physical world because it takes a lot more effort, and requires a much more significant investment in time.

On the plus side, it means you can keep relationships alive across great distances, and even during times where life is so busy that you have limited spare time.

But the problem is that forming meaningful relationships becomes an increasingly difficult task, to the point where you can begin to wonder if there is something wrong with you due to not being able to form those relationships. Further, you feel increasingly disconnected and isolated, when you have a lot of skin-deep relationships, but none which are truly meaningful.

I consider myself lucky to have a wonderful wife, and her company is more than enough to sustain me even when nobody else is around; but both of us still feel the isolation when we are unable to get together with friends for too long. We moved away from my home state, and she immigrated from another country, so both of us have left friendships behind, and been trying to form new relationships near where we live. It has been harder than expected, and I think it is in part due to people finding it really easy to blow off getting together in person when there is even the slightest inconvenience, especially knowing that they don't have to actually meet in person to keep the relationship alive.

As a result, my pet peeve these days is when people, when asked why they keep blowing off getting together, say "I've been so busy". For one, it is a meaningless statement, most people are busy, it is just the nature of having to work at least one full-time job and then fit in the other activities you want to do in the time left over. Most people still find time to get together with friends at least once in awhile. Thanks to the perpetual need to post everything on social media, it is usually evident that the "busy" person is not really actually busy, and instead what they really meant was "I've been too busy doing things I value more than our friendship, but am too uncomfortable to tell you that".

I don't know if it is related or not, but in my experience, the detachment derived from social media seems to go hand in hand with avoiding anything that is perceived as unpleasant, such as being honest with someone when it is a hard truth, e.g. "hey, my life is full, I'd like to keep in touch, but I'm not in a position to add new friendships right now".

This probably comes off as a rant against social media, but I'm not really anti-social media, I just think the way we find ourselves using it has real, detrimental effects on human relationships, in a way that we don't really understand and are only really starting to see the impact of.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#623

I felt loneliness acutely this week. I live alone, spend most evenings alone, and on top, work's coding and research has been slow for 2 weeks. Collaborators are at conferences and on vacation, so I had much less work and much less face-to-face contact than usual. Given that I code on my own, distribute analyses via email, and occasionally meet if people are around, I barely talked to people some days this week. Goin…

A friend of a friend told me that people, such as diplomat families who have to quickly settle but often relocate, will deliberately but routinely eat at the same restaurant, say, every Thursday evening. After a couple of weeks they'll find staff or other regular diners will engage with them and build relationships.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lived for a couple of years in America and opted to return to my country for similar reasons as yours Industrialized nations mistake comfort and wealth for happiness

I don't know where in America you lived, but not everywhere is like that. It is a big and diverse place, after all.

Which places are different?

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#625
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your daughter is fine but unless your son is disabled / has other potential issues (like autism, severe depression) you need to get him on the right track. No 25 year old should be able to get away with the excuse of being unable to "adult well enough to live on his own". Your son of course has responsibility but that's really your problem to fix if he won't

He's pretty seriously autistic. One thing having twins did for me was push me way over to the nature side of nature vs nurture. They're so different, and always have been. And I don't expect to have more control over their lives than my parents had over mine at that age.

What do you mean by seriously autistic? You said in another post he does tasks around the house and took care of your wife when she fell ill. A seriously autistic person would not be able to do that. A seriously autistic person would require constant adult supervision.

Are you sure he's not just under-socialized and addicted to porn and video games? How does he spend his days? He might simply be a western hikikomori.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#626
post #549

Man, the older I get the more I realize that life is always a balancing act. I immigrated from a 3rd world country (probably a 2nd world now) 20 years ago with my parents. Both of my parents were engineers and both were paid about once a year by their employer because nobody had any money. So we were broke and poor my entire childhood. And yet we always had friends visiting us. There were always celebrations. Seemed…

You, too, can strike up a conversation with a total stranger at a bus station and it doesn't have to feel weird. It is, however, likely to be short because people are so unused to it in the atomized west that, if you don't carry the whole conversation, they simply won't know what to say.

Last night, I said something to my spouse about a conversation I had with a "single serving friend", and she didn't know what I was talking about. I said it was a Fight Club reference, then went farther and explained that I had a five minute conversation with a complete stranger (just walking down the street together), and I had to explain this idea to her, because she's an introvert and would never, ever engage in a conversation with a stranger.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#627

I felt loneliness acutely this week. I live alone, spend most evenings alone, and on top, work's coding and research has been slow for 2 weeks. Collaborators are at conferences and on vacation, so I had much less work and much less face-to-face contact than usual. Given that I code on my own, distribute analyses via email, and occasionally meet if people are around, I barely talked to people some days this week. Goin…

A good longer play to bust out of that is to start working out of an independent cafe. Find one with a lower rate of laptop jockeys but that still has a couple. Bounce around until you find one that feels right: a good amount of regulars, people doodling, and bullshitting with baristas. Show up a couple times a week, drop into the odd conversation. And be ready to say “anyone want to grab a beer” come quitting time.…

When I wasn't working in the office, I did my work in coffee shops during grad school. I still try not to work at home now, and walk to a local coffee shop if I need to work on a weekend. Working in a public place made grad school more tolerable. Even though I was doing my work, I felt like part of my community and I was able to interact with other people. I even did make some friends doing it.

It sounded to me like WhompingWindows is a grad student, so I heartily endorse they try this approach. Just be in public spaces more. It helps.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#628
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same situation. A non sustainable life. With her all changed. I go to the gym so she does not have a skinny boyfriend. When I find something good at netflix I wait until she is home and we can watch it together. When I find a nice place, I remmember it so I can show her the nice bench under that tree in my hometown. I always have flashback about the time I moved to another city without family bondings. Then…

Then when she develops more serious health or mental problems, and you have nobody to help look after your children, relationship therapy has burned through a couple therapists, and you're telling each other how lonely you each are but avoid real conversations because they inevitably lead to more loneliness, then you will again have a new perspective. Good luck.

[deleted]

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bringing a child into the world to increase my own personal happiness, when nothing else I could do has such a direct and massive climate impact, is not something I can justify personally. Not to mention, my child would have to live to see the impacts of climate change. There is coming a point (it has already passed, in my opinion), where we can no longer justify our purpose for existence as "creating more humans."

That's an extremely negative-sum way of viewing the world. Some individual humans (and even communities) can and have had a net-positive impact on the environment. For instance, did the parents of Greta Thunberg have a net-negative impact on the world by choosing to bring her into it? When people implicitly say that bringing children in the world is necessarily a net-negative on climate, they're implying that their l…

> Because the world will NEED people with those values in the future ..

The world doesn't even need human or dinosaur. It will work just fine.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#630
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know a LOT about life and family formation. Sooooo, teach your kids. You've identified some of their worst problems and no doubt have solutions that would work for you, so teach them what you know. For your daughter, lots of men DO want good love, home, and family -- she just needs to find one, likely 10-15 years older than she is (for the reason for the age difference, that needs some discussion I omit here). Wh…

If she is 20 years younger, then he will have to date her until she is 18 or so, but that's okay, too. Mother nature and the lawyers agree: A women of 18 is old enough to get married, have kids, and do well at both. WTF is this comment. Please do not take this advice.

You don't understand mother nature, women, and love.

One of the secrets to a good love relationship is from the woman's often really, really strong romantic feelings when she is in her teens. That's just a fact, Jack. Live and learn that fact or suffer the consequences of ignorance. Some movies will say "That old zing" -- well, teen girls are awash in the propensity to "zing".

Sure, we'd all like some thoughtful, planned, rational, etc. relationship -- alas Mother Nature didn't get or like that memo. The relationship gets a LOT of that young women propensity or gets, net, less.

Bluntly, the woman is able to be good at marriage and motherhood years before a man is able to be good at marriage and being a father. That's just Mother Nature's way. In particular, the woman with a baby needs to feel that her husband is strong, wise, and cares about, cares for, and will take care of his wife and children. If he is close to her age, then that's super hard -- possible with some special circumstances but otherwise improbable.

Or, when she is 18 she is old enough; when he is 35 he is still young enough; and that's enough. Besides, in general, and especially for the case of this thread, he will make a much better husband and father at 35 than 19, 25, or 30.

For her at 18, she will need help, from her husband, yes, but also, as I outlined, from the rest of the older family members.

So, date her when she is 15-16 or so and marry her when she's 18.

I'm not nearly the first person to observe or even recommend such age differences.

I know; I know; the currently strongly politically correct view is that we should ignore any such gender/age differences as I outlined. But, bluntly, that's one of the reasons we're rapidly going extinct, literally, from birth rates too low from bad family formation.

It's just the facts of life.

I once believed as you did: At 18 she was fully ready to be married and a mother, totally awash in love. Would have made a terrific mother. But I was only 4 years older, and we planned. Lots of good, rational planning. She was brilliant, Valedictorian, Summa Cum Laude, PBK, Woodrow Wilson Fellow, NSF Fellow, mathematical social science Ph.D. from two of the world's top experts. But that's NOT what Mother Nature wanted. It flopped. She died. Her effort to be equal ("this equality stuff got me in a lot of trouble") was fatal. Now I'm lonely. Never, never, never again, never should any man ever, ever, ever consider a marriage with two Ph.D. degrees and close in age. NEVER. It's begging for disaster. In a word, are trying to do without the "zing".

Early on she said "Women don't have to be just cared for. Women can do things, too." Well, that was a deeply convoluted statement: Being cared for is what she really expected, wanted, and knew she needed. But she wanted to pretend to me that she could also paddle our little canoe. She knew she wanted to be cared about, cared for, taken care of. And for young women with children, those feelings are nearly universal and universally strong. So, you just learned one of the facts of life.

Ages 35 and 15 have a LOT going for them: Then at 38 and 18 they can be married and right away start their family. GOOD. TOUGH to do better than that. But you look at this terrific situation and find something wrong -- you need to study Women 101 for Dummies -- Men.

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