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The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

politico.eu

71–80 of 131 posts

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#71
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think that techies who constantly complain about crap documentation would realize quality writing is not free. (Best of luck BTW)

Thank you. It's especially crazy making because my writing sometimes spends time on the front page of HN, but I'm still talked at like a leech who is trying to "panhandle the internet," a thing someone (on a different forum, not here) literally accused me of for trying to monetize my websites while homeless. Like if you are poor enough, working for a living is not allowable and your work can't have value and you are…

>That mental model of "get traffic and somehow magically make money from it without charging anything" is rooted in using ads to monetize it.

These days it seems more like "burn VC money like there's no tomorrow, try all sorts of shady shit when you feel the investors' breath on your neck".

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#72
post #49

This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation. I have been suicidally depressed, institutionalized. I'm better now. I suppose if I actually attempted to kill myself, but fa…

Are you saying force-feeding people who don't want to be fed is ethical? I believe it's taught to be against medical ethics basically everywhere. This girl had been confined against her will already for 6 years. How many years of force-feeding would you have her endure as well? Go look up how force-feeding is done, I believe the summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture contained some descrip…

Force feeding is ethical if someone doesn't have capacity to make the decision and doesn't have an advance directive in place.

It's likely that she did have capacity to make that decision, which is why the courts didn't intervene.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#73
When I was about 17, one evening a friend from school with suspected borderline personality disorder called me and told me that she had "taken some pills, a lot of pills". I immediately went over to her house since it was in the neighborhood. She had already induced vomitting, but said that she was beginning to feel dizzy. Under the circumstances, we called an ambulance. Calling help was actually the scariest thing about the whole ordeal, because she suspected (I believe rightly so) that once you get caught in The System, you can get trapped in it for good. I remember feeling guilty about calling the ambulance, but it seemed too risky to not do it. In the hospital, it initially looked like our fears were confirmed. Treatment by the staff was horrid. However, after youth services interviewed my friend, she was let go, mainly because she was almost of legal age and because she affirmed many times that she regretted the suicide attempt. She ended up moving in with us for a few months, to get away from home and to sort everything out. It worked. As far as I know (we lost touch after school) she went on to live a full and 'normal' life.

There is no question in my mind that it would have turned out very differently if she had been just one year younger at the time. She would have gotten trapped in The System, no doubt exacerbating her suicidal feelings, both because the people in charge of 'protecting' these kids don't seem to be particularly kid-friendly, and because she was prone to clashing with authority figures (who, it goes without saying, tend to be petty and capricious). On more than one occasion my friend was told that she had engaged in an "illegal act" for attempting suicide - that's not helpful to say the least.

I have to admit though that I'm having trouble accepting suicidal ideation, especially in minors, without at least exploring treatment options. We as a society have an obligation to not make suffering worse, and we often seem to fail this basic test.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#74

This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation. I have been suicidally depressed, institutionalized. I'm better now. I suppose if I actually attempted to kill myself, but fa…

>This is the most aggressively anti-human thing I have ever seen, possibly even more than ISIS or cartel executions, because at least the perpetrators of those atrocities know that they are doing evil, even if they're unrepentant, which is more than can be said of the doctors in this situation.

I feel the same about people lobbying against assisted suicide. I have no other word for people who willfully condemn people to literal torture then simply monsters. I dont see a meaningful distinction to some psychopath predator in the absolute detachment from other peoples suffering. Forcing terminal people to live for a few more month or even years enduring absolute agony is just wrong. There are no two sides to this or ways to look at it. They are getting tortured because you think they should be tortured. Your motivation and intention doesnt mean anything, this is the naked result, there is no reason to sugarcoat it.

You are not other people. I am glad it worked out for you, but the arrogance to think that you know and should decide what others should endure is mind boggling to me.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#75
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think that techies who constantly complain about crap documentation would realize quality writing is not free. (Best of luck BTW)

Thank you. It's especially crazy making because my writing sometimes spends time on the front page of HN, but I'm still talked at like a leech who is trying to "panhandle the internet," a thing someone (on a different forum, not here) literally accused me of for trying to monetize my websites while homeless. Like if you are poor enough, working for a living is not allowable and your work can't have value and you are…

There is a way to make money from writing beyond publishing and hoping that readers will pay for your work after the fact. Most sustainable writing has never worked on that model. Traditionally, writers were paid by publishers and it was the publishers job to extract payment from readers.

Today, writers try to be both writers and publishers, and they find it extremely difficult. That's no surprise; professional publishers also find it extremely difficult to monetize their content. Writers applauded the web for disintermediating the relationship between them and their readers, but publishers had an important role to play; they promoted content and made sure that people paid for it.

Blogging and expecting to be paid for it is like a developer releasing their code for free on GitHub and then expecting people to pay to use it. Some developers can build a "community" who will pay, but most will fail.

However, developers do make money from people who want particular software, and writers can work on a similar model. I make a decent living ghost writing for executives and writing marketing content for tech companies. I don't write what I want or what I think is most important, but I make a living doing something I enjoy.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#76

Not euthanasia, but how would you call it ? I mean sure, was she given a lethal injection in a clinic ? Well, no. Is this not euthanasia ? Why the hell not ? 1) the girl is in fact dead 2) because she wanted to die (after being locked up in youth services for years, including months in an isolation cell) 3) the "original event" is that she was ("probably") raped at school. Repeatedly. She has never divulged what actu…

"Not euthanasia, but how would you call it ?"

I would just call it incredibly sad.

It is not euthanasia as defined by Dutch law. Which is something a lot of the media reporting the story are getting wrong. And is the main point of this article.

It is also not euthanasia in the more literal sense of a "good/merciful death". Slowly starving yourself to death is not a good way to die. It is pretty much the opposite. If her request for euthanasia was granted she would have died in a much more humane and peaceful way. Unfortunately for her it was not possible to be euthanized.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two minds of this as best exemplified by Camus and Sartre. A core tenet of existentialism is that we are always free to make choices, even if we cannot always control our circumstances. We’re still responsible for making choices — even choosing to not choose. Sartre was a believer in absolute freedom, and that suicide was a choice among many others that a person could make (and indeed, Sartre eventually did…

And what does Camus say you should do when your freedom is curtailed in unacceptable ways? (Note: way beyond social contract.)

I don't know about Camus, but Epictetus had some interesting things to say:

“Remember that the door is open. Don’t be more cowardly than children, but just as they say, when the game is no longer fun for them, ‘I won’t play any more,’ you too, when things seem that way to you, say, ‘I won’t play any more,’ and leave, but if you remain, don’t complain.” (Discourses I.24.20)

“Has someone made smoke in the house? If it is moderate, I’ll stay. If too much, I exit. For you must always remember and hold fast to this, that the door is open.” (Discourses I.25.18)

https://howtobeastoic.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/epictetus-on-...

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing to me is that supposedly reputable news sites like The Washington Post [1] were taken in by this piece of disinformation, when it took the author "all of 10 minutes to figure out the truth". Have they sacked all their journalists and now just copy random crap off social media, or what? [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/05/an-anguishe...

Writing of all sorts is currently under enormous financial pressure. Many "journalists" are no longer on staff with adequate pay, but are underpaid freelancers with no benefits. Local papers are shutting down in droves. Etc. It's a huge crisis and there's no good way to talk about it. I do freelance writing and blogging and I've been dirt poor for years. There is a long history of me either commenting on how the worl…

“Writing of all sorts is currently under enormous financial pressure.”

I know I could do more, but this is one of the reasons that I subscribe to both our local newspaper and one of the two large nation-wide newspapers in my country. If the local journos don’t get paid, there will be no one keeping an eye on what happens in municipal council. When I start working full-time again I will strongly consider subscribing to more publications, perhaps the other nation-wide newspaper.

[Slightly edited]

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many people for whom life is a living hell with no hope of escape other than to end it. Insisting they live amounts to serving as their warden and torturer. If it isn't someone you are personally willing to take some responsibility for, as you did with your wife, then I think it is wrong to insist they live. I'm quite open about my long history of being suicidal and the various underlying reasons why. Peopl…

> If it isn't someone you are personally willing to take some responsibility for, as you did with your wife, then I think it is wrong to insist they live. Exactly. People, even kids, kill themselves because of "lack of perspective". Lack of a (reasonable) future. Lack of any reasonable hope for change. People aren't stupid and mental illnesses (the non-medical ones) don't actually prevent thinking. That means the fir…

For kids sometimes the situation may seem hopeless. But the thing is, once they grow up, they gain more opportunities to escape their harmful environment. So often kids are especially mistaken about the hopelessness. They won't be dependent on parents and forced to go to school with abusive people forever.

The other aspects, about issues of the system, are of course also valid.

Re: The Euthanasia That Wasn’t

#80
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your happy but very drunk friend wanted to tapdance on the edge of a tall building, would you restrain them if necessary? Or if someone high on shrooms was trying to drink bleach? A suicidal mind is often one caught in the temporary throes of delusion and irrationality, even if it comes from internal wiring going haywire instead of external substances. Preventing someone from killing themselves is in their best in…

> A suicidal mind is often one caught in the temporary throes of delusion and irrationality, even if it comes from internal wiring going haywire instead of external substances. Why do you make this assertion that a rational person can't be suicidal? DFW was definitely a very rational person, for instance. I'd recommend reading Good Old Neon for an insight into his character, and a good depiction of both a suicidal an…

"Key words there are 'most often', but I'm curious to know your evidence for this assertion."

Don't you believe that such cases exist? Presumably there are also people who want to die, no matter what. But there are also people who just go through periods of depression. I also had the issue as a youth. It sounds to me as if you are hellbent on denying the OP's point by pointing to the extreme examples of suicidal people. What's wrong with trying to save at least the people who may only have a temporary attack of suicidal thoughts?

It only takes a fraction of a second to pull the trigger, if a gun is at hand, or to jump off a bridge. Then you can't reconsider anymore.

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